What's New in the Cross Reference Library? A New Tracie Peterson Series!

Destined For You - Gloriana Womack’s family is much smaller since scarlet fever killed her mother and two of her siblings. She’s dedicated her modest life in Duluth, Minnesota, to holding the remains of her fractured family together, caring for her father and younger brother. But it is hard not to be overrun by worry when her father is often gone on long fishing trips, their livelihood coming from the waters of the temperamental and sometimes deadly Lake Superior. Luke Carson has come to Duluth to help shepherd the arrival of the railroad to the city’s port, and he’s eager to be reunited with his brother and sister-in-law, who recently moved there and are expecting their first child. Competition for the railroad is fierce, with the neighboring city of Superior, Wisconsin, fighting for the tracks to come through their town instead. But the real danger lies in a man who has followed Luke across the country with revenge on his mind. When tragedy brings Gloriana and Luke together, they help each other through grief and soon find their lives inextricably linked. If they survive the trials ahead, could it be possible they’ve been destined for each other all along? 

Forever My Own - Kirstin Hallberg thrives on setting things right, eagerly accepting the challenge to cross an ocean to care for her elderly grandmother. She arrives in Duluth, Minnesota, to find the city intent on rising to greatness as it builds a canal to provide access to Lake Superior. But she also discovers a grandmother still full of life and secrets—secrets from the past that have the power to change her family forever and threaten the tranquility of their future. Ilian Farstad has troubles of his own when a logging accident renders him bedbound. Estranged from his father, Ilian is grateful when his father’s neighbor and her newly arrived granddaughter offer to care for him. His friendship with Kirstin’s family gives him the opportunity to get closer to her, but does he dare take a chance with his heart after watching how love failed his parents? With no clear way forward, can love survive and the past be forgiven? 

Waiting On Love - Crisscrossing the Great Lakes onboard her father’s freighter ship, the Mary Elise, Elise Wright has grown up cooking and caring for the crew. It is a life she loves. Unlike her estranged sister, Elise has turned down numerous opportunities for a “respectable life” with their wealthy relatives. And now, because of promises she made to her dying mother, she’s bound to the ship and her deeply grieving father more than ever. Nick Clark is grateful to be hired on as Mary Elise’s first mate as he works to overcome his own guilt and other’s censure for a fatal decision he made captaining another ship. He feels protective of the Wrights and their generous natures, especially when a rough new sailor seems intent on causing serious trouble. As the sailor’s misdeeds grow, tragedy swells up from another corner. Left to pick up the pieces of the commitments they’ve made to themselves and to each other, Nick and Elise will have to rely on their faith to see them through.

If God Knows That Some People Will Go To Hell Why Does He Create Them?

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Hashley and Brad Kilthau.

Gary Hashley
The question that we're going to talk about today is this: "If God knows that some will reject His offer of salvation, why would He create people that He knows will go to hell?" I would say there's even another question, a question posed by one of my professors at Bible college years and years ago, a question to get us thinking. "If God knows all things, and the Bible implies He does, He knows the past, He knows the present, He knows the future. He knows what is actual, and He knows what is possible. If God knows all that, and God knew that Adam and Eve, when He put them in the garden and He gave them the one rule. Don't eat from the tree in the midst of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God knows all things, then God would've known Adam and Eve would disobey. Why did God even make Adam and Eve? And that is one of those questions that I don't know we will ever have an answer for that will satisfy anybody. And one thing we always need to keep in mind, and I think Brad would agree with me on this, is that we are not God's judge and jury. God doesn't answer to us. I think sometimes people make up their mind, "If God isn't the way I want Him to be, then He's wrong and I just don't want to believe in Him." But think about it on the other side, since He is the creator of the heavens and the earth, and He is the creator of us, and He is the giver of truth and the giver of morality. Who are we to look to God and say, "I don't think you're fair. I don't think you're doing this well. John 3:16 says, "For God's so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life." We know from scripture that those who don't put their faith in Jesus, not only will be condemned, they are, John 3:17, it talks about, "God didn't send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Then it says, "He who does not believe is condemned already because he's not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God." And so, you know, God created us, not robots. He created us with the ability to choose. We have intellect to think, we have emotions to feel, we have a volition or the ability to choose. Now, from God's side, scripture makes it very plain that He wants people to be saved. Let me just share some examples: Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, declares the Lord, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways. For why will you die, O house of Israel? Earlier in chapter 18, he says, "I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord. So turn and live." Another place in that same chapter, "have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live." Proverbs 8, "I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me." Lamentations 3, "The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, to the soul who seeks Him." Jeremiah 29, "you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Isaiah 45, "turn to me and be saved all the ends of the earth for I am God and there is no other." 1 Timothy 2, "This is good and is pleasing in the sight of God, our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." God wants people to be saved. He provided for us to be saved. Jesus made it possible through his death, burial and resurrection. The Holy Spirit works in people's hearts to draw them to God. We have the scriptures that point us to God. We, as believers, have been told to be his witnesses. And so, if people don't believe and they've never heard, that's our fault. But if people have heard and don't believe, that's their fault. None of it is ever God's fault. I was studying to write my senior thesis as a senior at the Grand Rapid School of the Bible in music in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I was writing my thesis on the sovereignty of God and the free will of man in salvation. I was reading a book by Arthur W. Pink who said that Jesus did not even die for some people. He said, "God created some people just to send them to hell." Now, I can't go with that because the Bible says, "God loved the world and gave His only begotten son." So when I posed that to someone close to me, who is of the persuasion that Arthur Pink has, I said, "well it says, for God so loved the world." And he looked at me and said, "yeah, but world in John 3:16 doesn't mean 'world.' World only means the few He's chosen to save." Well, I can't go there folks, because the Bible so many times talks about the offer being made to all of mankind. In fact, Peter talks about people denying the one who bought them. Jesus bought us with his blood. He paid the price on the cross. So I think God's heart is, He wants everyone to be saved. Salvation is to be offered to all. It is available to all. And those who do not put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, that's their choice. He said, "they're condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." So we can play the game of, "God should do what I think is right, and God should do it the way I think He should do it." Or we can sit back and say, "I trust God to always do the right thing, because God is faithful to Himself." Faith comes by hearing the word of God. And the Bible is out there. People pick it up in motel rooms. People hear it on the radio. People hear it from a friend, read it in a gospel tract. They see scripture in the gospel tract. People have come to put their faith in Jesus. So the thought of, "why would God create people He knows will go to hell?" I don't know why, but I do know that they don't have to if they put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. So, my theologian friend across the table here, Brad, why don't you pick up where I've left off. Or start where I haven't even been and throw some input into this question.

Brad Kilthau
Well Gary, you know, when you look at that question, and I know that question comes up a lot, "why would He create people that He knows will go to hell?" I think you can look deeper into that question and really see what the person is really asking. They're trying to put, again, guilt on God or fault on God for people not being able to go to heaven. And I think what we have to keep coming back to, obviously is it is not God's fault. And it is not God's desire, again, that anyone would perish. And one of the ways we know that is, when we look in the Bible, especially in Romans 1. In Romans 2, it speaks about how God offers Himself as light to every single human being. It talks about how creation is without and how conscience is within. And as we know, that the Lord gives us witness of His existence, and that goes to everyone. Now there are people who do not want to accept that there is a God. There are people who do not want to accept that they have to answer to God. And so they might come up with their own theory of how things came to be. And that's how come we have, I believe, the false propaganda of evolution that's going on right now. It's not that people don't know that there's a God, they just don't want to acknowledge that God is there. They don't want to answer to God. But again, we come back to what you were sharing too, Gary. Is that God created us because He wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to be with Him. He wants all of us to be saved. And so, again, He shares that He's there. Just look at creation. Just look at, even the moral law that's written on the heart of every human being. Where did that come from? Well, it had to come from some source. And when a person turns to that source, or looks for the source of what that came from, you gotta see that there's a designer who made the design and all of the beauty that we live in on this world. And so, God's witnessing that, "I'm here. I want to have that relationship with you." And then when we, as Christians, come along and we read scripture and we read what Jesus said, as you were saying in John 3:16. And then we also read in Acts 4, when the apostles are sharing the same thing. That they're salvation in no one else other than the name under heaven given among men, which must be saved. And that's through Christ Jesus. And again, there's a resistance. And they, um, "well, we don't wanna believe in this Jesus. We don't want to accept Him." Well, there again is the fault of the person who will end up someday in hell. The Holy Spirit is always drawing people to the truth that there is God. And when we acknowledge that there is a God, that there is some light in general, again, of a creator. Then the truth of the matter is, God will always, always bring more light to show that He is there. One of the questions that come up in my Bible school training was, you know, of course we always have these that come along and say, "well, what about the guy that's living out there on a remote island? And he's never heard the gospel. No one's ever shared the Bible with him. And what about him?" Is it his fault that he'll end up someday in hell? Well, that's when you go to what we teach about in the subject of Apologetics. And we come back to a very familiar story that often could be shared. Think about a guy that's lost out in a dark jungle. He's been out there for some time. He's been exposed to the elements, he needs to get back to civilization, otherwise he's going to die. He's out there in the middle of the night. He climbs up on this mound and he starts looking around and he sees off in the distance there's this little speck of light. Now, what should he do? Well, he should walk towards the light. If he rejects the light, he's gonna be in trouble. So if he starts walking towards the light, the light will get brighter and brighter and brighter, and eventually he'll find himself coming back into civilization where he could find the help that he needs. But if he looks out and sees that little speck of light and says, "nah, I don't want anything to do with that," and turns around and walks back into the darkness, well, whose fault is that? It's the man who chooses to turn away from the light that was offered to him. And in the same way, when God offers, he says, "I'm here. Look at what I've created. Look at the law that's written on your heart." When you see that light and you say, "is there a God?" Here's what's gonna happen, God is going to bring more light to you. And it might show up just as you were sharing, Gary, it might show up as a gospel tract. It just shows up out of nowhere. Maybe somebody threw it inside of your kids' trick or treat bucket on Halloween, and it ends up in your hands. Maybe all of a sudden you find yourself with a Gideon Bible in your hand. Maybe you're the guy on that island all by yourself, and all of a sudden a missionary comes rowing up in a little boat. Why do you think he's coming? Because God is sending more light. And I know that we live in a society today that wants to try to promote our God as some evil tyrant that would just love to see people suffer. That's the work of Satan. That is not God. God doesn't want anyone in hell. In fact, he created hell for Satan and the fallen angels. It's not even there for human beings. He doesn't want us there, He wants us in his heaven. But that is up to us if we're going to accept Him or reject Him. And so when we see God, He gives a general revelation to show that He exists to show that we need to actually start turning to Him. But again, we have to come to the truth is that no one is gonna be saved by general revelation. They have to hear the gospel. They have to hear it from the word of God. They have to hear the message just as you were sharing. And John 3:16, that's how my Sunday School teacher led me to Christ when I was eight years old, is through that verse right there. And so we have to hear it again from God, from His word. And so God will get that word to those who are desiring a relationship or to know Him. And you know, when you look in the Bible, you think about the early church and those who went out. How Peter went out to Cornelius, how Philip went out to that Ethiopian. God must have really loved that Ethiopian to send Philip out there into the wilderness and say, "Hey, there's a guy reading from the book of Isaiah. Go out there and talk to this man about me." And when we look around the world today, we can even see some in Muslim countries that where the word of God is being shut out. But we find that God is still revealing Himself to many today in dreams to show that He exists. And as we see those who are starting to turn and say, "Is there a God? Is there a God like this that loves me?" All of a sudden we find that radio waves or internet or some way, God gets the message or the gospel to those people. And so the truth of the matter is, God wants all sinners, all of us who are lost in sin, He wants us to get the message of grace so that we can say yes to Jesus. There's never gonna be a time of when someone's gonna stand at the great white throne of judgment, which is for only those who have rejected Christ and stood into eternity that way. But there's never gonna be someone who can stand before God at the great white throne of judgment and say, "God, I didn't know you were there. I didn't know you loved me. I didn't know that. I had no chance to have an opportunity to come to know you." And that is not true. The Lord will say, "Depart from me, because I never knew you." But it wasn't because of God's fault. It's because man has chosen to reject Him and His light.

What’s New at the Cross Reference Library? New Jody Hedlund Books about Love and Second Chances!

Come Back To Me - The ultimate cure that could heal any disease? Crazy. That's exactly what research scientist Marian Creighton has always believed about her father's quest, even if it does stem from a desire to save her sister Ellen from the genetic disease that stole their mother from them. But when her father falls into a coma after drinking a vial of holy water believed to contain traces of residue from the Tree of Life, Marian must question all of her assumptions. He's left behind tantalizing clues that suggest he's crossed back in time. Insane. Until Marian tests his theories and finds herself in the Middle Ages during a dangerous peasant uprising. William Durham, a valiant knight comes to Marian's rescue and offers her protection . . . as his wife. The longer Marian stays in the past, the more she cares about William. Can she ever find her father and make it back to the present to heal her sister? And when the time comes to leave, will she want to? Bestselling author Jody Hedlund is your guide down the twisting waters of time to a volatile era of superstition, revolts, and chivalry in this suspenseful story.

Never Leave Me - In the last stages of a genetic disease, Ellen Creighton has decided to live out her remaining days at the estate of her longtime friend Harrison Burlington. Harrison cares deeply for Ellen, but as a wheelchair-bound paraplegic, he's never allowed himself to get serious in a relationship. However, he's desperately trying to save her by finding the holy water that is believed to heal any disease. When he locates two flasks, Ellen refuses to drink one of them because she believes the holy water killed her sister and father. In an effort to convince her to take it, Harrison ingests the contents first, and when Ellen witnesses the effects, she can no longer deny the power of the substance in the bottles. Dangerous criminals are also seeking the holy water, and Ellen soon learns they will go to any lengths to get the powerful drug - including sending her back into the past to find it for them. Best-selling and award-winning author Jody Hedlund plunges you into the swiftly flowing river of history in a race against the clock in this breathtaking, emotional second Waters of Time story.

Falling for the Cowgirl - As the only girl in her family, and with four older brothers, Ivy McQuaid can rope and ride with the roughest of ranchers. She's ready to have what she's always longed for--a home of her own. She's set her heart on a parcel of land south of Fairplay and is saving for it with her winnings from the cowhand competitions she sneaks into--but her dream is put in jeopardy when the man she once loved reappears in her life. After two years away, Jericho Bliss is back in South Park as an undercover Pinkerton agent searching for a war criminal. He has no intention of involving a woman in the dangerous life he leads, but one look at Ivy is all it takes for him to question the path he's set out for himself. Even though Jericho tries to resist his longtime attraction to the beautiful and vivacious Ivy, he finds himself falling hard and fast for her. In the process, his worst fear comes true--he puts her smack-dab in the middle of danger. With Ivy's life in the balance, will Jericho give her up once again, or will he find a way back to her, this time forever?

The Last Chance Cowboy - With danger drawing ever closer, their only hope of saving their futures lies in each other. As a midwife, Catherine Remington is successful in bringing new life into the world, but she's failed one too many times in finding true love. When she's accused of a murder she didn't commit, she's forced to flee to Colorado to honor a patient's dying wish by delivering a newborn infant to his father. The repentant prodigal Dylan McQuaid is finally back in Fairplay. As sheriff, he's doing his best to prove to the town he's a changed man and worthy of their trust. When a woman shows up with an infant son he didn't know he had, Dylan is left with only complicated choices on what to do next. Having grown attached to Dylan's son, Catherine doesn't want to part ways with the infant, but what she doesn't bargain for is how easily she'll fall for the charming sheriff, or how quickly the past will catch up with her and put their love and lives in danger.

What's in the Cross Reference Library? Great C.S. Lewis Biographies

The Magic Never Ends - Since The Screwtape Letters catapulted C.S. Lewis to fame in the 1940s, he has been among the world’s most widely read apologists for the Christian faith. The contributors to this book suggest that his popularity might be explained by the fact that he asked the hard questions about Christianity so directly and answered them with uncommon clarity and simplicity. But C.S. Lewis’ enduring fame can also be traced to his broad literary legacy: 

• His profound apologetic books such as Miracles, The Problem of Pain, and Mere Christianity are often considered the most readable works available on the subjects.

• In novels such as Perelandra and Out of the Silent Planet, he created new worlds to test old truths. 

• His children’s fantasies, set in the magical realm of Narnia, are among the most widely read children’s books ever. 

• His scholarly works on English literature remain standard classics in their field. 

• Compiled volumes of his speeches and essays preserve his wit and wisdom. 

Having known and scrutinized this remarkable man, the contributors to this volume help us to understand the growing interest in Lewis and his work. His stepson, Douglas Gresham, his posthumous editor Walter hooper, foremost Lewies archivist and lecturer Christopher Mitchell, and Dabney Hart share their memories and insights into the Lewis legend. They recall, for example, that Lewis’ friend J.R.R. Tolkien took him to task for writing theological books. “I wish I didn’t have to,” Lewis replied, “but until the theologians and the ordained clergy begin to communicate with ordinary people in the vernacular, in a way that they can understand, then I’m going to have to do it.” This book can help us understand how a once outspoken atheist was so successful in achieving that goal. 

A Life Observed - C.S. Lewis is one of the most influential Christian writers of our time. But while it was clear from the start that he would be a writer, it was not always clear he would become a Christian. A Life Observed tells the inspiring story of Lewis’s spiritual journey from cynical atheist to joyous Christian. Drawing on Lewis’s autobiographical works, books by those who knew him personally, and his apologetic and fictional writing, this spiritual biography brings the beloved author’s story to life while shedding light on his best-known works.

What Are Satan's Angels, And Should I Worry About Them?

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Hashley and Brad Kilthau.

Gary Hashley
We are looking at another question today, helping clarify things in people's minds. And here's what came, "Christians and others often talk about good and bad, and that there is a spiritual war going on between God's angels and Satan's angels. I get God having angels, but not sure about Satan having angels. Are these what are called demons, and do I have to be worried about them?" So, to start with, we need to be reminded that Lucifer, who we came to know as Satan, the devil, the serpent, the dragon. He's called all of those in scripture. He started out as an angel. We read about this in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel chapter 28. That's easy to remember: 14x2 = 28. But in Isaiah 14:12, "how are you fallen from heaven, oh day star, son of dawn? How are you cut down to the ground? You who laid the nation's low. And here's the answer you set in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven above the stars of God. I'll set my throne on high. I will sit on the mount of the assembly in the far reaches of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the most high.' But you are brought down to sheel, to the far reaches of the pit." We find that Lucifer was originally an angel himself, because God didn't create Satan as Satan. He didn't create demons as demons, but He did create angels as well as on earth creating humans. But He created angels, an enumerable company of angels, and they were there serving Him. And yet this Lucifer, who it would appear, was maybe the highest ranking angel in God's host of angels. According to Isaiah, he started to become proud. He started to think that, "why should I serve this God? Why can't I be God?" And he declares that he wants to be God, and God cast him from heaven. And he took with him other angels who had followed his thoughts, who had decided they wanted to follow him instead of following God. And they were cast from heaven and Lucifer, we know now as Satan, we know him as the devil. John in Revelation talks of him as the dragon, talks of him as the serpent. And that's where he came from. So he was an angel, and those who fell with him had been angels. In Revelation 12, starting at verse seven says, "now war arose in heaven: Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent who is called," listen to this, "the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, he was thrown down to earth and his angels were thrown down with him." So when you hear of demons or Satan's angels, it appears from scripture. We're talking about the same group and there are angels who followed Lucifer and his rebellion. Angels who decided that Lucifer must have, they thought had a chance to dethrone God and then found out you can't dethrone God. A created being cannot dethrone their creator. And they were cast from heaven. Earlier in chapter 12 of Revelation, it talks about the dragon with his tale drug out a third of the stars. And the understanding that I've heard all my years is that third of the stars implies that one third of all of the angels God had created went with Lucifer in his rebellion. We read in the Old Testament in the days of Moses, of a rebellion that started with Korah Dathan and Abiram. And Korah decided Moses was getting too big for his britches, and that Korah ought to be in the same place Moses was in. Many people listened to Korah and decided Korah was right, and they were going to dethrone Moses. God stepped in and said, "no, don't dethrone the person I've put in charge!" And so Moses stayed in charge. And Korah, of course, that says the Earth opened up and swallowed him and his stuff. But yes, there are two types of angels now, but there was only one type of angel at creation. But there are two types of angels now. And so the question then comes about the spiritual warfare that happens between these two entities. In our last time we did this, Brad alluded to the time in Daniel, when Daniel prays and Gabriel is sent to deliver a message as God's angel, taking a message to God's man, God's prophet Daniel. And it says that Satan and his angels got in the way and there was a battle taking place until Michael shows up and leads the charge against Satan. And Gabriel then is able to go on 21 days later, earth days later, and take the message to Daniel. We read about the armor of God. It says, "we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world." It says, "so put on the armor: the breastplate of righteousness and the helmet of salvation. Take the sword of the spirit." You know, "the shoes of the preparation of the gospel of peace, the belt of truth around our waist." The word of God, the sort of the spirit, the shield of faith, because there are battles going on that we never see. You know, when Elisha was surrounded by the enemy and his servant was all upset Elijah said, you know, prayed, "God open his eyes so he can see." And the hills were filled with fiery chariots and God's army was out there fighting against the armies of Satan that we never see. So yes, there are evil forces who started out as angels, but we know them now as demons led by the chief of the demons, Lucifer, who we also know as Satan, the dragon, the serpent, the wicked one. So Pastor Brad, should we be worried about these demons?

Brad Kilthau
Well, there's a lot of thought with that. And in some cases, well, we need to know where they are. When we look at the Bible, we understand that some of those demons that were cast out, that followed Satan outta heaven, were cast out and came down to this earth. We know that some of them we don't have to worry about because they're permanently bound right now. We read about that in Genesis of where these angels came and had sexual relations with daughters and men, with women, human beings. And of course, there was the offspring, and this was totally against God's will. God saw it as such a heinous, immoral sin that he bound them forever, and they are in the lowest abyss. And they will be there until the Lord decides to dump that into the lake of fire at the end of time, and so they don't get another chance. And so we don't have to worry about those angels, those fallen angels that is. But there are also the fallen angels that we think about in Revelation 9 that come out. We could call them the locust demons that are in the bottom of the Euphrates River as they obviously sinned against God in a very heinous way here on this earth. And they are cast into this abyss, but they will be released during the tribulation period as part of the fifth trumpet judgment to carry out some very hurtful things against those who are on the face of the earth. If we're believers, I'm just saying, we don't have to worry about those angels either because it will come out during the tribulation period. And as we are raptured before the tribulation, we won't be here to be seeing them. But there are still demons that are active, thriving, doing the work of Satan right now all around us. And just as you said, Gary, if we could pull back that veil, we would see that spiritual warfare. We're not fighting against flesh and blood, we're fighting against a spiritual enemy in our life. It's something I think we always have to be reminded of. What can these demons be doing to us right now? I think a lot of people think about the demon possessed people as we see in the gospel accounts of where they were cast out and and so forth. When Jesus cast the demons outta that one man, a host of demons, and they went into the swine and then they went out into the sea of Galilee and drowned there. You know, and I think a lot of people have this misconception that, well, we don't have to think about those demons anymore.

Brad Kilthau
They're not active today like they were then. I truly believe they're more active today than they've ever been because they know their time is getting shorter and shorter before their judgment comes. So how can they hurt us? Well they can cause, as we know in the Bible, certain physical and emotional and mental disorders in people. We can see that in Matthew 12 and Luke 13. They can also cause among people what we would call self mutilation. Some of the things we've looked at in the past, one of the things that's very popular was, those who were cutting themselves. And some of that's still going on today. Sometimes we wonder, where does that come from? Why would a person do that to themselves? Well, I think we've labeled everything as a psychological problem, but we need to know there's also a spiritual problem going on. And sometimes I think we're mislabeling some of that. And it is the work of demons. They're very active today in teaching false doctrine, and I think that's one of their main things. In fact, the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4, he says, "Now, the spirit of God expressly says in the latter times, some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons." And when we start looking at what's being taught in some of our church buildings across our country today, and we start to wonder, where could that come from? How could ministers of God, claiming to be that, standing front of his congregation and telling his people that Jesus was not born of a virgin. To stand in front of his people and say, "well, Jesus resurrected from the grave, but it wasn't physical. It was only spiritual." And we gotta think, where could you get such a thought? How could you stand in front of people and share that? Well, the only way you could do that, is if you are being misled by, I think, a demonic presence. That there has to be an influence of a demonic spirit that's misguiding and teaching false doctrine through people as a mouthpiece for them. They can hinder spiritual activity. I know that those of us who've sought to lead people to Christ, it invariably happens. And I know, Gary, you could attest to this too. You know, when you're preaching a message and you're getting down to the heart of the message, you're ready to drive the point home that people need to recognize Christ as Savior and Lord of their life. And you're bringing it right to that point, and all of a sudden hymnals start to drop on the floor, or it seems like somebody pinches a baby about that time. And the whole place goes to confusion and immediately as a servant in the ministry, we recognize what that is. That's a spiritual attack. It's trying to hinder the sharing of the gospel that happens over and over. We gotta also remember that demons can do miracles. They're limited in their ability to do that, but they can do some very deceiving miracles. One of the things that I thought of a while back is what we call the apparitions of Mary. And there's a rise on this right now in the world of where many people are truly believing that they are seeing Mary, the mother of our Lord. As we think about in the Bible, they're seeing Mary appear before them, and then she starts to share some things. She says, "I'm speaking for God to you." Most often, what she is saying to these people is, "you need to pray to me. You need to confess your sin to me. You need to come to me. I'm gonna be the intern between you and God." And we know that's false. We know that's not true. It is only Jesus who is the intercessor between us and the Father. How can that be? Well, demonic beings can actually present themselves in a physical form to look like a human being and be used to share false things. And people will believe this because, again, they've been deceived. And then sometimes, yeah, they can invade and possess certain humans. And that still happens today. And I know we like to label everything as a physical or a mental issue, but we need to look sometimes further. There could also be demonic possession of people today. Some people have asked me in the past, they've said, "So, Pastor Brad, have you ever seen a demon possessed person in your years in ministry?" And I've gotta say, "yes, I have." And when that person looked at me and spoke to me, I immediately recognized that it was a demonic presence. And of course, how do you defend against that? It comes back to what you said again Gary, Ephesians 6, it is through prayer and through the word. Through prayer and through the word. The word is our offensive weapon against a demonic presence in our lives.

Gary Hashley
Well, I hope that helps answer that question about Satan's angels and demons. Are we talking about the same thing? And I believe the answer is, "yes," we are. And there's much to learn and there's much to grow in our faith, because greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world.

What's in the Cross Reference Library? Unexpected Answers to Unexpected Questions

A Window to the World - Megan Diamond, an introverted seven-year-old, has decided that being “invisible” is all she can ever hope to be. That is, until Jen Lovett walks into her life. Her new, uninhibited friend brings Megan out of her shell and into a new—and sometimes dangerous—way of viewing the world. Soon, Megan’s shyness is replaced with self-confidence. When sudden tragedy strikes, the world is turned upside down for both Jen’s and Megan’s families, and as the years pass, the effects of that one horrible day continue to cause heartache. And then an unexpected phone call changes everything and becomes an invitation to have restored what has been lost. But with the invitation comes the painful reopening of old wounds. Megan must ask herself what part a troubled past plays in shaping who we become, how we view the world, and—more importantly—how we view the God who is in control of our destiny. Is the risk of staying in the bud worth the pain, or were roses—and people—made to blossom?

Miracle At The Higher Grounds Cafe - Chelsea Chambers is on her own. After a public split from her NFL superstar husband, Chelsea takes a bold step out of the limelight and behind the counter of the Higher Grounds Cafe, an old-fashioned coffee shop in dire need of reinvention. But when her courage, expert planning, and out-of-this-world cupcakes fail to pay the bills, this newly single mom finds herself desperate for help. Better yet, a miracle. Then a curious stranger lands at Chelsea’s door, and with him, an even more curious string of events. Soon, customers are flocking to the Higher Grounds Cafe, and not just for the cupcakes and cappuccino. They’ve come for the internet connection to the divine. Now the cafe has become the go-to place for people in search of answers to life’s biggest questions. When a catastrophe strikes and her ex comes calling, Chelsea begins to wonder if the whole universe is conspiring against her quest to make it on her own. After a shocking discovery opens her eyes to the unseen world around her, Chelsea finds the courage to ask God a question of her own. Heaven answers in a most unexpected way.

Life is full of unexpected circumstances that help us grow. Just like us in our everyday lives, the main characters in the two novels that I chose to tell you about this week, discover that for themselves. At the beginning of A Window to the World we are shown the origin of a very special friendship. First we are introduced to a young Megan Diamond who is struggling as a shy 1st grader. In her young age, Megan had a lot of trouble making friends. But that was about to change when the new girl in her class, Jennifer Lovett, starts treating Megan like she is visible. On that first day of school alone, Megan and Jen become instant friends. You know, a very similar thing happened to me, but instead of the first grade, I met one of my best friends in the eighth grade. For most of my school years, I was really bad at making friends and I always felt invisible like Megan did in this novel. But then everything changed for me that fall of 2016 when I met my very own Jennifer Lovett. I actually thought it was kinda crazy when I started reading chapter one, cause the personalities of the two girls as of the first two pages reminded me of me and my friend Aubrey right away. The two of us couldn’t have been more different. I’m an extreme Introvert, while she’s an active Extrovert. Nevertheless, we made sure to lift each other up everyday as junior high and high school tried its hardest to bring us down. The other interesting thing that I seem to have in common with Megan, is how her newfound friend seemed to gradually bring her out of her shell. But unfortunately, that is where our similarities diverge. My friendship with Aubrey had blessed me in several ways. She’s a part of a great Christian family, which introduced me to the church I go to today. And if she hadn’t encouraged me to step out of my shell a little bit, I wouldn’t be able to do my job that I have today. For Megan though, in A Window to the World, her friend Jen begins to have a bad influence on her as they grow older, and what’s worse is that Jen’s family doesn’t believe in God. As an adult, Megan starts asking hard questions, and as you read this novel by Susan Meissner, you’ll discover the answer she receives. 

As I looked through our library for a novel for this week’s blog post, I found Miracle at the Higher Grounds Cafe by Max Lucado. His main character Chelsea Chambers is also asking questions that she hopes will be answered soon. Her cafe has been in her family for years and has become her passion as well. But income is barely coming in, and Chelsea faces the threat of getting closed down. In Lucado's unique way of storytelling, he brings about a special answer to her prayers. So I guess the point that I wanted to make in today's post was that when your pastor says that the Lord does answer prayer and that He works in mysterious ways, He does. He loves each and every one of us, and wants to help us grow through the trials and confusion. And I loved how these two novels reminded us of that. So come on into the Cross Reference Library and check out what we have in store!

What Are The Best Bible Translations? Part 1 - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez, and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
So great to be with you guys and great to be back with our listeners again today. We're gonna do a follow up today to a question that we covered a couple weeks ago. Somebody asked a little bit of a translation question about some names in the Bible, and as part of that conversation we got just kind of talking about a little bit about different translations, which is something people often wonder about. I think probably, I wish personally, I don't know, but you guys, I wish people came to me with more Bible questions. I've never met a pastor who said, "oh, people are constantly barraging me with Bible questions." So...I love doing this program. But one of the questions that I've probably been asked the most is, "well, pastor, what's the right translation? Or the best translation? Or what would be a good translation for me?" And so I think that'd be a good one for us to just kind of talk about today.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. So, I think that is definitely one of the most questions I would get too is, "what translation should I read or which one should I stay away from?" And so today, I guess I'll kind of go through something that when I, that was probably one of the questions I asked too when I first became a believer too. Is, "pastor, what translations should I read?" And so, you know, back then, great question. You know, he threw out a couple, but I had a friend that actually drew me out a chart I guess, so to speak. And so that's kind of what I've used now. And I don't have all the different English translations on here. I guess at some point I could start adding and making this list a little bit better.

Gary Schick
There's always more!

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. So I kind of have just the ones that he had showed me back then. And so imagine, like, a straight line, and on one side of the line you'd have, like, your literal translations. And so the literal translation is an attempt to translate by keeping as close as possible to the exact words and phrasing of their original language. So they would take the original language and make sure that they stay true to that. And then on the other, the far side of this, you would have the free translation. This would be more of like that paraphrasing translation. And then in the middle you kind of have, what my friend would call, was the dynamic equivalence. And this was an attempt to translate the word, and it would be close, but it was kind of more of like a word for word. And a lot of times that's kind of tough because, in one, you know, language they have a word, but that word means many things. English should be just kind of, you know, like love! You know, like love, we just think 'love' and, you know, in other languages there's many types of love. And so, those can kind of get kind of tough as you start translating through that. And so, you know, if we look at some of these translations you look at, like the King James version, that would be a literal translation of the scriptures. NIV would be more of that dynamic equivalence. And I guess the NIV 1984 , I should say. Cause you go with some of this new NIV and I would start putting that more of kind of like that paraphrase. Cause some of it's really not where it needs to be anymore. So if you're going NIV, I would definitely try to make sure you find a 1984 version of it. If you can.

Gary Schick
You gotta go for a used though, cause they won't sell them in the regular stores anymore.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. They won't sell that anymore. And so if we were looking at a paraphrase version, this would be, I guess, the most popular one would be the Message Bible. And, you know, that's a good one to read through. But that's not one that I usually use to study through. For me, I usually use either the, New King James, more than likely that's what I'll have in front of me. I'll go back and read through many of them, but I usually study out of more of the New King James. That's kind of the direction I guess I've gone, because that's what I was given when I started, when I became a believer. Everybody kept on handing me, either the King James or the New King James version. Those are the ones that were constantly given to me. So I guess, if we look at the first complete English language version of the Bible, was John Wycliffe's in 1382, I think is what it's what it said, he was kind of accredited for that complete translation of the English Bible. You'd also have, like, William Tindell, that was the 1500's I believe, kind of where he was translating the scriptures. And so, yeah. So for me, I mean, that's kind of the Bible that I've kind of stuck with. And then I've had, like, the Message Bible, I've used that to kind of further study I guess, and not as my main study. So, yeah.

Ben Cline
Yeah, thanks for that. That's a good overview of, you know, the different styles of translation that there are. And, you know, it's funny cause Gary, I don't know what translation that you use, but we may all use different translations. You know, the one that I kind of tend to stick to is the New American Standard Bible. But that's one of the literal translations. And the hard part about some of those is that, you know, especially with that particular translation, is that reading through it is kind of choppy, you know, in English, it's sort of abrupt. And so it is nice to be able to go to some of those other translations. Like the New Living Translation is one that I use just for listening to or for reading, you know, in my own personal devotion time, because you know, it flows in English better. So there's a lot of different choices out there. I guess some of the things that I wanted to talk about, you know, translation is really kind of a funny thing when you're translating from one language to another. I remembered a story. We went on a missions trip to Mexico and we were visiting a church down there, and the pastor asked me if I wanted to preach. Well, I don't speak a lick of Spanish, right? So, I had to have somebody who lived there, who knew English well enough, that he could, you know, translate as I was teaching that morning. But the interesting thing was that we had to sit down and go through the notes that I had written out and all that stuff because there's so many, you know, idioms and, oh, what's the other word? Figures of speech, that we use in English. And every language is like 'that' actually. They have their own idioms and their own figures of speech that they use. But we had to kind of try to take all of those things out and make them, you know, words that he could translate, you know, from English into Spanish as I was teaching. So that's just kind of the way that it goes. And so you have all these ideas that are, you know, from the Hebrew culture and, you know, ideas that come up in the Greek language that don't exactly translate over to English. And so, you know, they do scholarly study to try to figure out how to best get it down on paper in English. But, you know, I just had some thoughts, you know, about the different translations. And these are kind of more, you know, personal thoughts, things that I've learned over the years. And one of those things is to just be really careful when, in your understanding of what a translation is, there are, you know, some false ideas going around. You can't trust certain English translations, because the idea behind, you know, their understanding of how a translation is coming about, especially the newer translations, is that they're translating from one English translation to another, and making an updated version of it or whatever. But, you know, the truth of the matter is, the good English translations that we have, they're all happening from the original languages. From the original manuscripts. And so that's something that is just really important for us to understand, that those ideas that are being translated, the words that are being translated over are not from English to English. They're being done from the Greek and the Hebrew and the Aramaic over to English. And so, just one idea to be aware of. And then the other thing too is, you know, be careful of the idea that there's only one English translation that can be considered the word of God. You know, I know that there's, I might be stepping on some toes by saying that, but there's certain, you know, arenas that you can be in where they say, "this is the only trusted English version of the Bible." So don't go into that, because they're all, you know, a lot of these translations are done very carefully, and they have, a lot of work that goes into them and they really are trying to get that best meaning from the original languages. And then we also have, you know, I don't know if everybody's aware of this, but everybody has access to the resources if you have a word that you're, you know, getting really hung up on, there's resources online to be able to go to and find out the definitions and the different meanings of this word back in the original languages. And so, you know, that's not something that was readily available 20 years ago, but it is now for sure. And so, I guess the last thing that I wanted to talk about was just, you know, as the body of Christ, let's make sure to not let differences in opinion over Bible translations get in the way of us being unified as the body of Christ. You know, we don't want to let that cause divisions at all. So, just some thoughts.

Gary Schick
Yeah, really good thoughts, guys. You know, just in real simple, I think, in terms of answer to the question, which, what is the best translation or the best one for me? It's very simply, listeners, the best translation is the one you're going to read. It's the one you're gonna pick up and read. I'll tell you my own experience as a kid; I was handed, in primary one, I don't know what even that was, you know, somewhere between kindergarten and first grade, I was handed a little King James Bible. I've still got it. And in the cover plate it says, "thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." And oh, how I wish that I had read more out of that first Bible I was handed, unfortunately, as a rambunctious kid in Sunday school. We probably used our Bibles more for knocking each other over the head and really getting some talking to about that. "What? The word of God? What are your kids doing? But when I actually reached a point in my life when I was ready and hungry to read and I opened it, I mean, I made the same mistakes so many people do. The Bible's not just a book that you necessarily want to go cover to cover. It's a bunch of little books and probably best to start in the New Testament. But no, I started in Genesis 1 in the King James version, and as a, I don't know, maybe sixth, seventh grader at that point in my life, I was soon lost. And so I went to the Christian bookstore and there on the shelf were all of these translations. Some of the ones that you guys have already mentioned. The New American Standard was the one, like they were teaching in the seminaries. But again, a little bit harder language. There was the Revised Standard Version, which was a little smoother. I didn't know, but I looked at all of them. And the one I settled on at that point in my life was the Living Bible. And it was at a, was it a perfect translation? It wasn't even a translation, it was a paraphrase. But I'll tell you what listeners, I read it from cover to cover, and as I began to go, if you look through my old copy of the Living Bible, you'll see the opening pages are white. And then you start to see some red lines in there where I start to underline some verses. And then you see, by the time I, and I still did it the hard way. It took me three years; Genesis 1 to the end. Actually, I started in Revelation, because Hal Lindsay was a big deal back then, and I wanted to know how everything was gonna end. And I'll tell you what, if anything will cure you of being just totally, gobsmacked over what is, how are the end times gonna play out? Just read Revelation, and it just blew me away. I was like, "yeah, okay." And now I went back to Genesis 1 and worked my way back there again. But by the time I'm in the New Testament, the pages are, it's just like, "who bled on these?" You know, there's just all different colors. And as I was outlining and highlighting and underlining, it just became such a rich experience for me. And then from there I worked my way into, I guess what you might call, a better word for word translation. I guess we just want to come back to once again, what is the best translation or the best one for me, the Bible you're going to read.

What's in the Cross Reference Library? Helpful Books on Staying Financially Well

God is my Coach - How do I know I’m doing the right thing when there are no clear answers? How can I be confident I’m moving in the right direction? I’m not satisfied with where I am, yet I’m not sure what to do next. Do these questions sound familiar? If so, you’re in the “gray zone.” In GOD IS MY COACH, business leadership coach and bestselling author Larry Julian shows you how to navigate the “gray zone”---those defining moments where we face dilemmas and decisions that don’t have black-and-white solutions. In the “gray zone” we are filled with unanswered questions, ambiguity, and uncertainty. If you feel stuck in the “gray zone,” take heart. There is hope in this principle at the core of Julian's message: “Our true greatness lies within the gray. Uncertainty is the very catalyst to living a significant life and successfully leading others.” Larry Julian guides us through his practical eight-step coaching process, teaching us how to live and lead in the context of uncertainty rather than becoming paralyzed by it. Through Julian’s coaching process we will discover guidance in the gray and clarity in the chaos, and we will begin making wise, impactful decisions that shape our destinies. 

The Blessed Life - Our culture is saturated with false teaching on what it means to be blessed, but what does the Bible say about it? How can we truly live blessed lives? With humor, passion, and clarity, pastor and bestselling author Robert Morris presents the secrets of living a blessed life both financially and spiritually. He shows that when God changes your heart from selfishness to generosity, every part of your life-journey is affected. This book will transform your life for the better, bringing you guaranteed financial results. But it will do more than that. It will change every area of your life: marriage, family, health and relationships. For when God changes your heart from selfishness to generosity, every part of your life-journey is affected. If all believers followed the practical guidance of The Blessed Life, every church could be built, every nation would have an abundance of missionaries—and all would reap the benefits of having a generous heart.  

One of the most difficult things to juggle in life is our finances. We get jobs so we can provide for ourselves and our families. But how do we come upon some of these jobs? Maybe you’re in a position that you went through several years of college to earn. Or maybe you made a step-by-step plan with goals, budgets, etc. And now you have that dream job that you worked so hard for. Another possibility though, could be that income isn’t coming in like you need it to, student loans are kicking you in the butt, and you’ve had to pick up a couple more jobs to make ends meet. Did you identify with any of those? If you did, you are not alone. There are many people all over, who have most likely walked those roads, or even similar ones too. Well in the book, God is my Coach, author Larry Julian helps us take another approach. Is there something that you’re gifted in? Something that you are passionate about God has put on your heart to share with the world in your own unique way? In chapter one Larry Julian says, “When you use your gifts in response to God’s call, your work becomes a joyful form of worship. Your work is an expression of your giftedness; it’s your way of working out the gifts God worked into you.” And that quote also reminds me of Ephesians 2:10 which says, “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” So whatever gifts you have that you’re not sure you can contribute to your workplace, remember that every part of your personality and your giftedness is God’s handiwork. A little later on, Julian references a sculptor named Rosalind Cook, and I found something that she said very inspiring. “His hands guided mine to shape that small study because He knew exactly what His purpose was.” The other book that I picked out for this week was The Blessed Life by Robert Morris. Something that he stressed a lot on, was when it comes to our finances, it is very important to trust in our Lord. Morris reminds about this fact by saying, “At four separate points in the book of Deuteronomy, God tells those who will obey Him that He will bless everything to which they put their hands (found in Deuteronomy 14:29, 15:10, 23:20, and 28:8,12).” I recommend God Is My Coach and The Blessed Life to anyone who is confused about what they are supposed to do next with finances or work.

An Explanation of Slavery in the Old Testament - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez, and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
Hey guys, it's great to be together. We've got another interesting question that was passed along to me. Exodus 21:1-6 is the passage that's being asked about, and Jonathan's gonna read it to us. But the question is, "can you talk about slavery and the Bible's seeming endorsement of it? Also, it seems strange that a man would have to choose between his freedom from slavery and keeping his wife and kids. What does it mean that the slave's wife and children belong to the slave's master? Is there a spiritual truth that God is trying to show us here? I'm confused."

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah. So Exodus 21:1 starts out, "now these are the judgements which you shall set before them. If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh, he shall go free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself. If he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife and she has bore him sons or daughters, the wife and the children shall be her masters, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, my children, I will not go out free.' Then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl and he shall serve him forever." So that's the scripture that they gave us for today. And I think for me, a lot of times when we look at the scriptures, we look at them through our current circumstances, or the eyes that we've seen here with slavery. When we hear "slavery," we think of it as how we've grown up learning about it, I guess, through school. And, you know, how slavery was in the early times of the United States history and stuff kind of like that. And so we think of it, now slavery is evil like, I hope people don't think, as we talk through this, that we're trying to justify something or anything. But, you know, slavery in itself is evil. And it's not something that should be happening. And hopefully it's not happening currently, but we know that it is happening all across the world right now. So we look at this and we see that slavery, I guess, in the Bible we see it throughout the Bible, happening. And slavery was, I guess, permissible in certain situations as long as slaves were regarded as a full member of the community. And we kind of see this in Genesis 17:12, it says, "throughout your generation, every male amongst you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner. And so you see that even slaves were having to walk through the same things that the Hebrews were having to walk through. The slaves would also get the opportunity to have the same amount of rest. It says, "work six days and on the seventh day, rest." And so even the slaves were held to that standard. Like, "you're gonna work six days for me as a slave owner, right? But on that seventh day, we're gonna give you rest and you're gonna be able to recuperate, hopefully and be able to go on." They were to be treated like humans, cause that's, you know, even though they're slaves, they're still humans. And I think that's some of the difference that maybe we're seeing in the slavery that we've seen happen in the early US history; is a lot of the slaves weren't seen as human. You know, so we dehumanize things so that way it's easier to do things that maybe we shouldn't be doing to other humans. Not saying that back then in the new or in the Old Testament, that people weren't dehumanized. I think you were still seeing some of these things happening. And so I think you see, like, even here, like it talks about the Hebrew slave. They're gonna work six years for that person, and then in the seventh year they're gonna be free. And within our question it talks about, "what about the women and the children?" And I was reading through a bunch of different forums, I guess, on this yet last night and trying to, "okay, where are we seeing this." I've seen some people talk about, "okay, in this passage it doesn't say forever. And so maybe they're serving their six years, and then they'll be free on their seventh. But it doesn't really support that either." And so you kind of have this back and forth on that. What does that mean? And I guess for the way I read that, if the husband was willing to stay and become a slave forever, more than likely his wife and his children were the master's forever. Cause otherwise, why would you, you know, stay knowing that, "hey, your wife's gonna be out in two years," you know? Like maybe you'd, you know, work close to that, to where your family's a slave at, so that way you could be with them. But I guess I'm not really sure on that. So yeah.

Ben Cline
Yeah, these are, you know, difficult questions to deal with and sometimes to understand even from studying through what scripture has to say. But again, it goes a lot to the historical context of what's going on here. And again, like you said Jonathan, we have, you know, such a tendency to look at things through the context of how we understand things in our modern times. And, you know, in our modern times we understand slavery to be, basically, kidnapping somebody and owning them, which again, is evil. It's not okay. But a lot of times, the slavery or the servanthood that is being talked about in the Old Testament, and especially here in this passage in Exodus 21 this is talking about, you know, slavery within the Hebrew culture. And so this is, you know, somebody who owes somebody else a debt, and basically sells themself into servanthood to a person that's called their master now. And so this is something that we could compare to, you know, like indentured servitude. So they're basically there to pay off a debt. And the thing that I love about this passage of scripture, where God is establishing the law, is that he's taking something that the world has been doing for, you know, so long. You see a lot of examples of slavery in scripture of things that were happening in the world, where slavery was taking place. But what God is doing here is, He's regulating it and He's helping people to see that they can't just, you know, do whatever they want and take advantage of other people. And so He's really taking some time to establish some rules here and actually establish some rights, or some basic rights for the slaves, or the servants. And so, you know, slavery is fundamentally different in some instances, you know, from our modern slavery versus what was happening back in the time when this was written. And the thing that was happening that's so interesting, as you read through this passage a little bit further in Exodus 21, the modern slavery that we understand today is expressively forbidden. It's in verse 16 of Exodus 21 that the kidnapping and selling of people is expressively forbidden. And so modern slavery was expressly breaking that law that was established by God. But the interesting thing as you're looking, you know, at slavery in the Bible, is that oftentimes it was like this economic arrangement. And one big difference is that it was never one race feeling a superiority over another race. And that being the determining factor as to whether or not somebody could be a slave. And so that was, you know, a huge difference between what was happening back then and what's happening, not what's currently happening, but I guess there's probably still a lot of slavery that's taking place in different forms in the world now. But you know, what you were talking about, Jonathan, in the early days of the United States, that's exactly what was happening. You know, people were being taken and people were being sold as possessions, which was not okay. But God was establishing here ways for people to relate to each other in ways that were fair. And so there's that six years, you know? They're only allowed to have somebody serve for six years in order to pay off a debt. You know, a married couple, if they went in, if the husband was sold into slavery to pay off a debt, if he sold himself into slavery and he was already married, then they were treated as a married couple. They were treated as part of the community. They were treated as temporary residents of the community. And then when his debt was paid off after that six years, he got to go free with his wife. But then there's that situation where a man marries a woman after he has sold himself into this servitude and he now has a choice to make at the end of that six years. And, you know, if you have a person who truly loves his wife, he's gonna stick with her, right? And so God is giving them this option as a way to show people, you know, God's love and His mercy and His justice. He's giving them a way to be able to stay together. And so, you know, God really is just establishing order. He's allowing a way for families to stay together. He's showing His mercy and His love in establishing these laws, really. And that's probably just some of the answer.

Gary Schick
Right, and there's so much. But I think you guys have really laid the groundwork well. I mean, first of all, differentiating between, really, what's happening even in a lot of Islamic countries to this day where people are, you know, being taken. And we hear about human trafficking, again, right here in the United States. Quite a lot of it. But again, it's people being taken into slavery, and with no way out. And it's completely under the radar of the law, at least, if it's going on here in this country and in other countries. I guess it is legalized, but still in a very bad way. Whereas in the world of biblical times, you know, first of all, the economics of that world were so much different. Today, if you're poor, there are safety nets. You may or may not choose to take them, but they're there. Back then, if you were poor, and had no means to provide for yourself, you would starve to death. Or if you would fall into debt, there was no, you know, way to get out of that. There were no bankruptcy laws that would set you free from it. And I don't even know that there were debtor prisons, so how do you do this? So yeah, by all means, by one of the primary ways that people, and it would be a temporary thing, was to sell yourself. Many people came to this country that way, people forget, many people sold themselves as indentured servants to come here. You know, Englishmen selling themselves to their fellow Englishmen to work in their estates until they had paid off their debt, and would often go on from there and build up their own estates. So I don't, you know, think people really would have a problem with that. At least the idea of this was a temporary means. And then the other thing is, what did it mean to be a slave in the house? Again, we tend to think of the United States model, where the slaves quarters were, you know, kind of down the field. They were very, very poor quarters. The master lives up on the hill, in the mansion. Take a look at Abraham and Sarah, with her maid servant. Take a look at Isaac, Mairus, Leah and Rachel with their maid servants. They're not out in a separate part of the property, they are part of the household. The servants were part of the household. They have, as you guys pointed out, the same rights. And they had responsibilities, but they were, in a sense, part of the family without the rights of full heirs of the family. If we'd have read further into the scripture that you read to us, Jonathan, we would've seen that sometimes a woman from a poor circumstance, her parents may sell, in a sense, sell her to someone as sort of a secondary wife. But if she's not pleasing to him or, you know, maybe she was forgotten as a bride to his son. If that doesn't work out, then she is to be set free, free and clear. I mean, as you pointed out, unlike in the United States, where people were treated as possessions, people remain people in scriptures. And let's remember where this is being written in Exodus, the Hebrews themselves have just come out of slavery. It was, as you both pointed out, just sort of part of the world's system of that time. And so God is moving them towards seeing the humanity in every human. The bride that's provided for by the master is still part of his house. That was the problem. The guy who comes in from outside, and now he's going to basically take away from that household. But he has the option to become a part of that household for life. And in terms of the spiritual application, you know, isn't it in a an interesting thing in the New Testament, we do see even more of the seeds of moving away from slavery. For example, where Paul writes to Philemon about Onesimus, who was a runaway slave, who's now become a Christian and now is a brother in Christ. "He not only asks that you forgive him," in other words, not give him the punishment. Which could have been either a severe beating or death. "But rather receive him back as a brother." And in fact, Paul indicates, and I know you're gonna do even more, indicating basically, "Philemon, it's time to set an Onesimus free." Paul couldn't quite come out and directly say that because of the law of the Roman Empire at that time. But he could sure point Philemon in that direction, which he clearly does. And so this freedom, and it's interesting what the New Testament says to slaves and masters. He says, "slaves, you're free in Christ. You are not serving your earthly master. You're serving Jesus. So regardless of how you're treated by your earthly master do what you do as unto God." And we translate that without even thinking in our context to people working in the workplace, "regardless of your workplace, your boss, those around you, You do what you do as unto the Lord." On the other hand, Paul says to those who are free, the masters, "and you are yourselves enslaved to a heavenly master, and so you treat these others under your authority, under your workspace with the dignity that that is there due." And isn't it interesting then when, for example, James and Jude and, you know, these guys, they're writing the New Testament letters, they identify themselves as a slave of Christ. You know, a servant of Christ, bond slave of Christ, someone who is wholly belongs to the Lord, has become fully His man and fully His representative in the world. And so, you know, and those are some of the positives of that kind of relationship in that time period. They were part of the house, they were obligated to the house. They were to be fully provided for by the house. And they were full representatives of the house when they were sent out on an errand, on a mission with a message. And that is, we are sons of the living God and daughters of the living God through faith in Christ. But we are also his servants, his emissaries, his ambassadors. So is scripture endorsing it? No, it's not endorsing any of the bad, but it's moving the reality of what was going on in the world toward God's ideal for mankind. And also giving us some pictures of how we relate to one another and how we need to be fully God's people. And represent Him well and serve Him well in all things.

What's New in the Cross Reference Library?

Not What You Think - The Bible is seen by many contemporary readers as intolerant, outdated, out of step with societal norms at best, and a tool of oppression at worst. In this earnest and illuminating read, Michael and Lauren McAfee honestly wrestle with the relevance of this ancient book in our modern world and raise a few questions of their own: 

• What if we cleared the deck of our preconceptions and encountered this book anew?

• What if we came to this book with the understanding that our questions are not inappropriate but encouraged? 

• And what if these pages offered less of a morality to master and more of a story to join, a story with an unexpected plot twist that provides everything we need? 

Growing up in church, Michael and Lauren spent part of their twenties finding their way in New York City, and today they’re shaping their careers while pursuing doctoral studies in theology and ethics. Along the way, they’ve  had to wrangle questions about why, where, and how the most controversial book in history fits in our world today. Not What You Think is an invitation to reexamine the place of millennials in the world and the place of Scripture in our lives. Come and see for yourself, and maybe even be surprised. 

Lies Men Believe - You are being hunted. Like a seasoned angler, our enemy opens his tackle box and selects the lure most likely to attract his intended prey…and sometimes it’s the bait you and I are least likely to consider a big deal. But each lie—about God, ourselves, sin, work, family, money, and more—we bite on, ambushes our hearts and makes us a little less free. So it’s time to embrace Jesus—the Savior—and humbly ask Him to fill us with His Spirit and fight back for us. It’s time to uncover Satan's schemes and then wield the key weapon God has given us in this battle—the Truth. If you can’t shake the feeling that your life isn’t turning out as you had hoped and you want more, and if you’re ready to root out the lies the enemy is throwing your way…you’re ready for this book. You were made for freedom. Here’s your ticket to get there. 

The Warrior Maiden - When Mulan takes her father’s place in battle against the besieging Teutonic Knights, she realizes she has been preparing for this journey her whole life—and that her life, and her mother’s, depends on her success. As the adopted daughter of poor parents, Mulan has little power in the world. If she can’t prove herself on the battlefield, she could face death—or, perhaps worse, marriage to the village butcher. Disguised as a young man, Mulan meets the German duke’s son, Wolfgang, who is determined to save his people even if it means fighting against his own brother. Wolfgang is exasperated by the new soldier who seems to be one step away from disaster at all times—or showing him up in embarrassing ways. From rivals to reluctant friends, Mulan and Wolfgang begin to share secrets. But war is an uncertain time and dreams can die as quickly as they are born. When Mulan receives word of danger back home, she must make the ultimate choice. Can she be the son her bitter father never had? Or will she become the strong young woman she was created to be? This fresh reimagining of the classic tale takes us to fifteenth-century Lithuania where both love and war challenge the strongest of hearts.