What's in the Cross Reference Library? Donna VanLiere Christmas Books!

The Christmas Hope - Patricia and Mark Addison have long given up the hope of having a meaningful Christmas. But this year, Patricia’s job as a social worker will lead her to a very special five-year-old: Emily. Against her better judgment, Patricia bends the rules and takes the little girl into her own home. Through the presence of Emily in their house, and her penetrating questions about heaven, the Addisons will learn that there is no sorrow so great that faith cannot help you find your way through. And Christmas will once more be a time of warmth in their home. The Christmas Hope is a story of love in the face of loss, joy when all seems hopeless, and how light can shine into the darkest places. 

The Christmas Shoes - Robert is a successful attorney who has everything in life—and nothing at all. Focused on professional achievement and material rewards, Robert is on the brink of losing his marriage. He has lost sight of his wife, Kate, their two daughters, and ultimately, himself. Eight-year-old Nathan has a beloved mother, Maggie, whom he is losing to cancer. But Nathan and his family are building a simple yet full life and struggling to hold onto every moment they have together. A chance meeting on Christmas Eve brings Robert and Nathan together—he is shopping for a family he hardly knows, and Nathan is shopping for a mother he is soon to lose. In this one encounter, their lives are forever altered as Robert learns an important lesson: Sometimes the smallest things can make all the difference. The Christmas Shoes, a tale of our shared humanity, is a universal story of the deeper meaning of serendipity and of how a power greater than ourselves can shape, and even save, our lives. 

The Themes of Advent - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez, and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
Good to be back with you listeners, and perhaps some of you are doing a little traveling over the last week, and I hope that you made it safely home as we are recording this morning. It is a cold one out there, and maybe it will be on Friday when this airs. But anyway, we kind of have something that we're gonna, I think, hold until January. We're just, really getting in the Christmas Spirit and thought we would take a turn onto some of the, from a Christian perspective, the themes of the season. And take a little bit of a look at, what are called the themes of advent, I guess you might say. So, we come from three different backgrounds, and I know our listeners come from a lot of Christian backgrounds and some of you out there have grown up with something called Advent. And I would guess, just by our conversation right beforehand that all three of us, none of us actually probably grew up with it. I did not....we did not grow up with it. I have served in churches that didn't know what Advent was. I have served in churches where this is a big part of what we do---and I have found---and currently I'm serving in a church where it's not a big part of what we do, but it is something we kind of follow through the month of December. "Bring the kids up for a few minutes as we light some candles and talk about their significance." Of course, this is not found anywhere in scripture, but the themes that we talk about are found in scripture. And so, the very first one, and I guess there's different ways to approach Advent too, but the first one, I think universally, is the prophecy candle that talks about our hope as Christians. And Jonathan, could you get us rolling on it?

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, definitely. So, like Pastor Gary was saying, I didn't grow up with, you know, going through the Advent season. And I serve in a church that we don't really have it. I've never had it, I've never done it, I guess, since I've served there. And even as going to the church there, we didn't serve, or we didn't go through this process. But it's exciting to dive in and kind of learn and see what this looks like. And so the first candle is a prophecy candle of hope. And so in ancient times God gave His people, Israel, hope by speaking to them through the prophets. And, you know, we see this all throughout the Old Testament, and how the prophets spoke and gave the word to look at for forward. He revealed what was to come and told of the great blessings that they would receive when Jesus, the Messiah, would dwell amongst them. And the people look forward to the coming of their Messiah, and the hope that was spoken into this. We find that same hope when we read through the words of the prophet. And hopefully as you guys read through those, you can feel that hope building up within you. We find that, like I said, we find that same hope, Christ has come and our hope is in Him. "We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul," this is Hebrews 6:19, "a hope that is eternal." And so during this week, we get that opportunity to reflect on the hope of Christ. We see what the Old Testament had spoken of the coming Messiah, and then we get to see the actual coming of the Messiah. You know, as we celebrate Christmas here, you could look at the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore, the Lord Himself shall give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Emmanuel." And then we see the fulfillment of that in Matthew 1:23, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel," which being translated is, "God with us." And so that's kind of, you know, like I said, I have to really dig in to see what the Advent season is. And so that's kind of where my study is, I guess, so far has gotten me.

Ben Cline
Yeah, I also grew up in a church that didn't really, we didn't really know what Advent was. I think I'm sure that my pastor probably knew what it was, but we never really celebrated it, you know, in any way, shape or form. And so we weren't taught about it. But, you know, in recent years, the church that I serve at currently, we have some years, gone through the Advent season. Some years, not gone through it. But I wanted to kind of, like you were saying Jonathan, kind of dig into that this year and, you know, take some time to think about what it symbolizes and what it reminds us of. And, you know, thinking of the topic of hope, if you do a word study for hope in scripture, oh wow, it's gonna be a long word study, right? And it's a very large topic in the scriptures, and so it's an exciting thing for us to remember. And I guess the question that I always start off with when I'm talking to somebody about hope is, you know, there's a different understanding, I think, of that word hope in the world versus, you know, from what the Bible teaches about it. And so, you know what I guess the question is: what is biblical hope? You know, it is not the same kind of thing that we talk about when we say, "I hope that something happens," or "I hope that I get this thing," or whatever. And even going into the Christmas season, that's maybe something that we hear a lot as well. What do you hope that you get for Christmas? It's a wish, right? Yeah, it's something that, you know, we really just wish for. And it's not based on anything that we know for certain. And I guess that's the difference between worldly hope and biblical hope, is that the hope that we have is based on things that are certain. And the hope that we have is because of what certainly happened. And it's interesting, you were talking about Hebrews 11 as we were kind of talking before we started recording this morning. And the first verse in that says, "Now, faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see." You know, and so you can go through and you can do a, a study of that word, hope, and find all sorts of things in scripture about what biblical hope actually is. And the first thing that I would say, is that biblical hope is deeply tied to faith. You know, our hope in being certain of what we do not see is deeply tied to the faith that we have in God, and deeply tied to the faith that we have in the promises that He's made to us in scripture. And so, you know, if you look at the Greek, if you look at those, the definition of the word, hope, it has behind it this idea of certain expectation. Which, you know, if you're hoping for a pony for Christmas, it's not the same kind of certain expectation. But if you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your savior, you have that certain expectation that you will spend eternity with Him forever. And that you are now adopted as one of His children, that you are a co-heir, you know, of the Father with Jesus Christ. And so, you know, there's all these things that we can place that certain expectation into, and that's just the word that we call, hope. So those are some of the things that I was thinking about. Just getting started off with that theme of hope for Advent.

Gary Schick
Yup, and good things to think about. You know, as I think about these things, these are Christmas traditions. And I don't know about your families, I grew up in a family where it was pretty bare bones. Christmas morning, opening gifts...most of the time. I think, yeah, most years we would read the Christmas story together. Now, my current family, it seems like every year we're adding on some new Christmas tradition, you know? It's starting off with Christmas Eve: we all open one present, and it's a big surprise! It's always Christmas pajamas and a big surprise, we put them on and there'll be a game. And we go around in our Christmas pajamas, driving around looking at Christmas lights. So, if you see some people in pajamas on Christmas Eve, it's probably the Schick family and their dogs are with them in the vehicle. And that is just one of what has become many. But, you can kind of understand when the date of Christmas was somewhat set. And of course, there is a little difference. Most of the western Church, essentially, celebrates Christmas, December 25th. The Orthodox East celebrates, I think a little bit later. We'll probably hit that in January. What's the difference there? But in any case, think about the time of year we're heading into. Think about what this time of year would be without Christmas. The days are dark, long, cold. And so what do people start to do? They start to light fire to keep them warm. And so here is a time in the church when things are gloomy, dark and cold, where people would light a candle and begin to think about the biblical expectation that we have in Christ. And as we approach the day that we celebrate His birth, we don't know exactly. I think there's some ideas when He may have been born, but the 25th is just kind of what we've settled on. It's a great way, I think, to kind of get our minds a little bit back in what it might have been like for the people of the Old Testament past. You know, Peter talks about the prophets of old, longed to look into the things that we now celebrate, you know, who Christ is. So, I'll get up on Sunday and read for example, "for as we light this candle about hope and prophecy," to read just a few verses like you did. About, you know, from Isaiah 7, "the Virgin will be with child," or this Sunday, it wasn't actually part of that, but just part of my message, cause I actually am going through Hebrews 11. Where in Isaiah 9, it talks about, "For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders and he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." What must it have been like for Isaiah to write that and then to just wonder, "who is this? Who is this gonna be?" You know? And of course, we know it's Jesus, but to just be looking for, and you know what? In a sense, we are with those saints, those Old Testament people in the sense that they were looking forward to Christ. We're looking back on his first coming, but we are also waiting with eager expectation and confident hope. I love the way you talked about that Ben, looking forward to His return. You know, the world is still a dark place, and yet we have this light burning within us: Jesus! This hope, and we have this assurance that He is coming again. He is going to set the world right. And for those who put their hope in Him, there is all of the eternal joy to come. What a great thing to focus our minds on in the hurry and the busyness. In the dark and the cold and the slippery and the wet! But yet, as Christians, let's be out there with hope, and we're gonna talk about some other great things: peace and joy and all the things that we associate with Jesus and His coming. But today, it's on hope. Hey, thanks listeners for being part of this with us. And again, where where are you at today? Maybe you're not feeling hopeful. Maybe there's some pretty heavy burdens on your shoulders. Maybe there's some recent grief in your life, or even past grief that's still pretty heavy in your heart. I just encourage you to open up the word go back to the promises that look forward to Jesus and just be reminded of all that is ours in Him. What a great hope wishing you that today.

The Christmas Tornado

Here I am with my first company issued semi-truck.

A few years ago, I was working for Werner as an over-the-road truck driver. This meant I could be sent to deliver items with my truck anywhere across the United States, and I lived in said truck for months at a time.

The truck driving field is a tricky one, because while it tends to pay well, there are a lot of companies which treat their employees like they are just tools to be used and not like human beings. 

When I first accepted the job, I had been told that I would have a route which would allow me to be home with my family every weekend. My dad had recently passed away, so the ability to be home often with my mom during that time was imperative in my decision to take the job. They had, as it turns out, lied to me, and I ended up being away from home for around three months at a time. 

Here I am learning to drive manual in a semi-truck in Millington, Tennessee.

Unfortunately, by the time I realized they had lied to me about my route, they already had me trapped financially. In order to get a Commercial Driver’s License I had had to attend a trucking school in Millington, Tennessee. They lured me down there by saying that the trucking school would be completely paid for by Werner, but once I was there, they revealed that I would have to take out a loan for $7,000 in order to pay for the three week school. Then if Werner decided to actually hire me, they would make my loan payments every month for as long as I worked for them. Honestly, that’s an okay deal, if they had been upfront about it. But they hadn’t.

Long story short, I ended up trapped working for them by a $7,000 loan. I tried to make the best of it. I had met another girl, Laura Powers, during training in Los Angeles, California who had asked me if I’d be willing to team drive with her. So, I called her up and we started out our venture as close-quarters roommates and co-workers.

Laura was great, we got along really well and had a lot of fun times together. The only problem was, no matter how hard I tried, I could not handle the stress of the job and of feeling like I was abandoning my family. Things got so bad for me emotionally that I could no longer eat anything without instantly having to rush to the bathroom, which is the last thing anyone wants to happen while driving a 16-wheeler down a five-lane interstate.

I vividly remember one specific moment when I was at my wit’s end. I was driving south in Florida, towards Orlando. I wanted to quit my job right then and there, but I had no idea how I would get home or pay off my loans if I did. So, I did what I should've done sooner, I turned to God for help. 

---

“Desperate Prayer” by livin_4_jesus

I prayed, “Daddy God, I’ve gotten myself into a major bind here. I do not think I can physically continue with this job. But I don’t want to be financially irresponsible and end up with a mountain of debt I can’t pay off. My emotions tell me I should quit and go home. My logic tells me I need to stick it out at least until my debt is paid off. I need you to decide for me. If you want me to quit then find a way to get me home to do so; if you don’t want me to quit then please heal my mind and body so I can physically continue this job. In Jesus name, Amen.”

---

A photo I took when I realized I was going to work over Christmas.

A few weeks later, Christmas was right around the corner and Laura and I knew neither of us were going to be able to be home for Christmas. There was no way our dispatchers would allow it to happen. We had learned pretty quickly that the dispatchers liked to promise they would get us to certain places to keep us compliant, but then yank it away from us at the last minute and send us to the other side of the country. 

Our route over Christmas was taking us from North Carolina to Salt Lake City, Utah. It just so happened that I was driving on Christmas day through Nebraska on I-80 heading west. It was a windy and stormy day so I had to take it slower than usual. Then the strange and abnormal (for winter in Nebraska) happened, I had just passed Grand Island when our cell phones blared out an Emergency Alert. A tornado had touched down a few miles away from us. 

Chevy- my co-driver’s dog

I woke Laura up and had her get her leash on Chevy--her husky dog who rode along with us--as I pulled over into the truck stop by Wood River. After I parked the truck, the three of us hurried into the truck stop to take shelter.

We had a blast that night, hanging out with the truck stop employees and the few other truck drivers who were stuck there waiting out the winds. The tornado didn’t end up coming our direction so the next day we started our trek west again. We were nearly to Ogallala before we were informed that I-80 in Wyoming was closed to all traffic due to high winds and they estimated the closure to last three days. 

Laura and I had a choice, we could wait the three days out, being buffeted around by the wind in our semi-cab, or we could head a little farther west and just a tad bit north, and wait out the weather with my family at my mom’s house. We chose the second option.

So, I wasn’t home for Christmas that year, but I was home for the day after Christmas. I was so thrilled to see my family, that I was feeling a lot better psychologically, at first, but then I was hit with an emotional bomb. I found out that the guy I was seeing was already married, had at least one other “official” girlfriend, and had a one-night-stand in Chicago, who was pregnant with his baby. (He was also an over-the-road truck driver so that’s how he pulled off this horrific trickery--just keeping us all in different locations.)

Everything he had ever said to me kept spinning around in my head, because none of it matched up with the reality I was now facing. I felt like a fool. I hated that he had turned me into the “other woman”. I was so angry and heartbroken I couldn’t stop crying. What was left of my fragmented psychological state shattered to pieces. 

In that moment, I knew without a doubt that there was no way I could continue putting up with dispatchers whose starting place of communication was yelling obscenities; or with feeling like my life was moving on without me while I was just rolling down interstate after interstate. I was lost and broken, both emotionally and physically.

That’s when it hit me--I was home. At the precise moment where I had absolutely nothing left to give to over-the-road trucking, God had gotten me home. I talked to Laura and she insisted that she and Chevy could manage on their own. So I unloaded my stuff from the truck and I quit my job.

Shortly after, I was hired to drive sugar-hauling trucks for a local company, which allowed me to be home every day. Then a few weeks later, I got a notice that Werner was being sued for their dishonest practices, and I was able to make a deal with the bank to pay them $1,900 instead of the full $7,000 and have my debt wiped clean.

That day in Florida when I had prayed for help, I hadn’t been able to see a clear path to regaining my financial freedom or to getting back home, but God had already laid the path out before me. I’ll definitely never forget the time that God answered my prayers with a Christmas tornado.  

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

- Romans 8:28 (NIV)

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This series of blog posts titled, “Holding on to Reason”, is named after Amanda’s favorite C.S. Lewis quote: “Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods.”

Click here for more stuff written by Amanda Hovseth.

Why in the Old Testament, is LORD in all Capitals? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Hashley and Brad Kilthau.

Gary Hashley
Well, good morning and welcome to another installment of Ask the Pastor. I affectionately think of it as stump the chump, but that's just my mind and the way my mind tends to work. This question was turned in at KCMI that was forwarded on to us, and the question reads this way. "I've noticed in the Old Testament, when it talks about the Lord God, LORD is all in capital letters. In the New Testament, it's used with lower case letters: Lord. What is the significance of these?" Well, that is a very good question, because how do we know God other than as He has revealed Himself? And one of the ways He revealed himself is in this thing we call the Bible. But in the Bible, another aspect of God revealing Himself is through His names. There's not just one designation. There's not just one name for God, and so we need to then spend a little time and do a little study to learn about God based upon His names. There are three primary names for God that we find in the Bible. There is Elohim, there's Adonai, and there is Jehovah. Elohim, Adonai and Jehovah. Elohim we meet real early in the Bible. "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," capital G, lowercase O, lowercase D. Let me read to you from Lehman Strauss's book. "The first person," he says, "L signifying unlimited strength, energy, might and power. Allah, signifying to swear, declare or make a covenant. These two roots, when brought together in the name Elohim, mean infinite strength and absolute faithfulness. Thus, we are introduced to the God of the Bible as the one with whom nothing is impossible." And who always keeps His word. Elohim is the strong faithful one. So when you come across the word God, capital G, little o, little d, it is the English rendering of Elohim talking about God's power and God's faithfulness. No wonder in Genesis 1:1, "in the beginning God created," the power of God, "created the heavens and the earth." So Elohim is one of those you run into. Then you find Jehovah, which appears with the all capital letters. Whether it's the word Lord in all capital letters, or the word God in all capital letters. And it's the translation in English of Jehovah, the name Jehovah translated God. All capital letters about 300 times, and Lord, all capital letters about 6,000 times. It's mentioned in scripture more than any other name of God. It's derived from the Hebrew word "havah," meaning to be or being. When Moses said to the burning bush, "who do I tell the Hebrew people you are?" He said, "tell them, 'I am who I am has sent you," the one who is to be. The idea is of course, that of existence, self existence. Thus Jehovah is the eternal existent one, self existent one without beginning, without end. The same yesterday and today and forever. God is now what he always has been and what he will remain forever. So when you do see it in all capital letters, LORD or GOD, it's Jehovah. But then there's a third term, Adonai, which you see as the word Lord with a capital L and then a lower case o r d. And of course, that name has to do with authority. It has to do with reigning over, and others being under the one who makes the rules. The one who puts the rules into place, and the one who would punish for the breaking of the rules. And so those three primary names are really important for us to learn from, because they tell us things about God. So yes, capital G, little o little d from Elohim. Capital G, capital O, capital D are all capitals with the word Lord, Jehovah. And then Lord with a capital L and a little o r d, Adonai. Now, those names are often compounded, Almighty God: Elshaddai. Most high God: El Elyon; Everlasting God: El Olam. Then with Jehovah, there's Jehovah Gyra that talks about being the provider. Jehovah Rapha, a healer; Jehovah Nissi, our banner. Jehovah Shalom, gives us peace; Jehovah Tsidkenu, got our righteousness. Jehovah Shama, the God who is present. So yeah, it might be simpler in some ways if there was just one name for God, but God reveals Himself as the self existent one, as the strong one, as the faithful one, as the giver of peace, as the one who provides for our needs. And all those are part of what we find in the Bible with the names of God. Brad, looks like you're ready to jump in.

Brad Kilthau
Well, you know, Gary, you're saying that and it's right on. Of course, when we look at the names of God, it is to help us to understand more about who God is and the character of God. And kind of when you go through history and see the Jewish people and how they pen out scripture, how they read scripture in public squares and so forth. And then as you come down to the New Testament time, and we get, here in our Bibles---but when you go back to to ancient history, some of the things that I found that was very interesting is: we realized that for thousands of years, the Jewish people, they had a great expression of how to worship the Lord. And it's found in Deuteronomy 6:4-5 it's called the Shema, and it goes this way here, "O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." And of course, these are all capital L O R D, "the Lord is one." "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." And Lord, as we see in that worship of the Jewish people to God, is the personal name of Israel's God. It's the personal God. Now, as we learn, of course you come back to Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3. And of course that's when God appeared to Moses and said, "Moses, I want you to go out and lead my people out of slavery, out of Egypt." And of course, there's Moses, you can just see him shaking in his sandals like, first of all, he's got to face Pharaoh. The second thing is, he's got to go back to his people who've already rejected him, and why would they ever follow him? And it's like, Moses turns to God and says, "well, what if the people asked me the name of God and who sent me?" And so God responded, and when you're studying the original language, God tells him, "tell them 'Ea sent me." Ea is the best way I could pronounce it. And when you study that, it means "I will be, I will be." And so you can just see Moses like, "how am I gonna use that? I Will Be sent me? It's not gonna work for me." And you know, God can obviously read our minds, as Moses is standing there, "I will be," should be only something that God would say to the people. So in the next sentence God tells Moses, basically the word, Yahweh, the God of our ancestors has sent me. "That's the way you will address the people. The God of your ancestors is the one who has sent me to come and to free you." Now, when you get to that word Yahweh into ancient Hebrew, again, it is actually a form of a verb. That means He will be, just as you were saying, Gary, He's always been, He's self existent. God is just simply there. He doesn't depend on anyone else for His existence. He never was created, He's always been, He will be. God has always. And so when we see this word, Yahweh, that's when we come to that appearing in the scripture, some 6,500 times in the Old Testament alone. Now, through the centuries, as we know the Jewish people, they wanted to honor the divine name of God. And so often they didn't wanna say His name, when it came to his name. As they were reading the scripture out loud, they thought it would be a great way to honor God by not even saying His name, because they were not worthy to say His name. And so when they read the Hebrew Bible aloud and they would come to the part of where they would need to say His name, they stopped even saying the word yahweh. And instead they said, Adonai, Adonai for the Lord, Adonai. And this practice continued throughout the centuries. And later on, when people started to translate the Bible, especially as we know coming into the English language, they somewhat had the same practice. Instead of spelling out the divine name, just translated L O R D all in capital letters. And more of that is when you think about the ancient scribes, you know, they wanted to prevent anyone from accidentally saying God's name out loud. And so they came up with a, I don't know, kind of a visual reminder to make sure nobody said it wrong. And when they would say, you know, again saying Adonai was a way that they could say the name of God in public and still show respect to God. But one of the ways they moved on with this, to make sure that no one said the name of God and used another name that would still honor God, but not be speaking a name of God, is they took the four capital letters out of Yahweh. They took the Y, the H, the W and the last H of the Divine name. And of course we see Y H W H, and then they inserted the vowels of the name Adonai. And so they took the vowels, a o and a, and they came up with a word, which is for a name for God, which is pronounced Yahuah. And so the Israelites and the Jewish people aren't gonna say Yahuah. So it was just a visual reminder, never to say even Yahweh, always go to Adonai and say it as Adonai. And then of course, when Christian scribes and so forth, translating scripture, a lot of them didn't know this history when they were even translating some of this. And so, some of them even started using the word Yahuah, which was an artificial word. Instead of saying Adonai or as coming back and saying Yahweh. And so they were saying, Yahuah. And until basically later on through this time of figuring it out, finally they came up with the true way of, they thought, of addressing God in a way that would be honoring and still not be saying His absolute name. They said Jehovah, and today, many Christians still use the word Jehovah. The title Jehovah describes the name of the Lord. Now, the main thing is this, the word L O R D in all capitals, it indicates that there is a divine name of the God of Israel. And we have to be careful sometimes that we don't confuse that. Because when we come into the New Testament, of course there's the word Aden, which is simply as you were alluding to, Gary, means Lord, L o r d, with the lowercase letters following. And of course, that name could be used to describe a king, you know, or to describe a guy that had servants or a guy that was just a shepherd over the sheep. He was a Lord of that. And so often the authors would use that: the Lord of all the Earth, the Lord of hosts, the Lord of Lords, and so forth. But I think behind all of this, this is what we gotta get out of. This is Jehovah, Lord, Adonai, Yahweh, all of these, it represents the original name of the God of Israel. And I guess the way we need to address the God of Israel, if you really wanna be serious about this and to say it properly, and you're worried about saying it wrong, it's just the one who was the one who is, and the one whoever will be. And to probably reverence the Lord with his name.

Gary Hashley
And I think we need to be very careful, because we've become pretty flippant with the name of God. Israel was very careful, even how they said it and how they wrote it. I agree with that. And we take it so casually and we use it as just an expression of excitement or an expression of fear or whatever. And we need to be really careful how we use the name of God.

Brad Kilthau
You know, sometimes that can even happen in our prayers, right? We can Lord, lord, lord, Lord, and not even realizing we're throwing that precious name of the Almighty God out there like that. Again, do we really mean to say His name? Do we really mean to say His name in a reverent way? You're right, Gary. We have to be very careful that each time we address Him and try to speak His name, that we have this high lifted up reverence for who we're speaking of.

Gary Hashley
I had a young man at Frontier School of the Bible when I taught there, who loved to start his prayer, "help me God." And something in me just cringed. I'm not saying it was horrible, but it just seemed a little casual when you're addressing the sovereign God of all things.

What's New in the Cross Reference Library? Book Two in The Bride Ships Series

The Runaway Bride - Wealthy Arabella Lawrence flees to British Columbia on a bride ship, still bearing the scars of past mistakes. One of the few single women in the boomtown, she immediately attracts suitors, but she is determined not to find herself trapped again by making a poor choice. Vying for her hand two very different men. Lieutenant Richard Drummond is a gentleman in the Navy, held in high esteem. Peter Kelly is the town’s baker who has worked hard to build a thriving business. He and Drummond not only compete for Arabella’s affections, but also clash over views of how the natives should be treated in the midst of a smallpox outbreak. As Arabella begins to overcome her fears, she discovers someone in dire need—a starving girl left behind by her tribe. Intent on helping the child, Arabella leans on Peter’s advice and guidance. Will she have the wisdom to make the right decision, or will seeking what’s right cost both her and Peter everything?

What's in the Cross Reference Library? The Heroes God Wants Us to Be

Hero - Being a single man in today’s culture is downright dangerous. It’s easy to be overwhelmed, feel helpless about living by God’s high standards for singles. It’s easy to cave to in to the pressures of this sex-soaked world and accept defeat—blaming the media, the culture, even girlfriends who don’t know how tough it can be. But many men have read books like Every Young Man’s Battle and Tactics and have committed themselves to stand strong and pure in the power of God, and to go on the offensive against the onslaught of negative stereotypes. Some have suffered. Some have fallen. But many have experienced victory—and you can be among them. What makes those committed men so desirable to women? Hero is their creed. From best-selling author Fred Stoeker, along with his son Jasen, come the straightforward insights and real-life examples you’re looking for to help you take personal purity to its logical conclusion. Here’s straight truth with irrefutable evidence of what makes an ultimate hero to women who long for men of faith—men who stand by their convictions and make their world a safer and better place. 

The Roar Within - Every boy has dreams of the man he will become—exploring the world, fighting the enemy, and being dangerous for good. He imagines himself as the hero, the expert, the one others look up to. Then somewhere along the way, the lies of the enemy knock him down, his dreams are shattered, and he loses his purpose as the enemy attempts to rob him of his true identity. In this hard-hitting book, world-class hunter, adventurer, and popular speaker Brent Henderson takes men on a journey to some of the most dangerous and deadly places on earth. Along the way, he helps each man discover that the most powerful force in the universe can be found in his spirit, where God resides. He shows men how to revolver what’s been lost by answering their biggest questions: Who am I really? Where does my value come from? Am I enough?

Who Were The Puritans? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Johnathan Hernandez and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
Okay, here's the question. "The Puritans play a prominent role in our observance of Thanksgiving. Can you tell us more about these people and their faith?" And Jonathan, would you get us started?

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, so I had to do quite a bit of research, cause I didn't know a lot, I guess. So I guess the question talks about Puritans so we can, I guess we'll hit on that. They were a group of people that were, I guess part of the church in England. And a good majority, you'd have two different groups, you had the Separatists, I think that's how you say it. And then the ones that didn't wanna separate from the church. Those kind of the two groups of that Puritan thought process I guess. And they were really wanting to, I guess they were a movement that was trying to separate the Anglian type of church culture that they were wanting to move into, and separate from more of that Catholic church mindset. And so they wanted to make sure that their influence was purely scripturally motivated. And then they also wanted to eliminate from their beliefs anything that was rituals or practices that weren't really directly found in scripture. So they didn't wanna just do something because it was what we've always done. They wanted to make sure it was, "this is what scripture shows and so then we'll go with that," their beliefs. And from what I found on the internet, some of their beliefs was that there's a judgmental God. God rewards good and punishes evil, predestination, the elect, the original sin, God's grace and providence. And so that was some of the beliefs that they would, I guess, walk in. And so, if we're talking about Thanksgiving as a holiday, we would talk more about the Pilgrims, and the other guys, we'll get more into that as we move forward. But the Puritans, I guess if we separate them from the Pilgrims, they came over to America more in that 1630, somewhere around that time, to Boston. And they were also ordered from the king to establish a colony there. And so they came over with the goods, with the backing of England in that sense, to come and establish a colony there that would really be England on this side of the states. Well obviously, it wasn't the states back then, but (laugh). So that's kind of where they came over from, that they really wanted to separate and have religious freedom. A lot of them, and this is where we see the pilgrims coming over, is cause they were coming over because they wanted to have that religious freedom. And some of the Puritans really, I guess some of them later on were still part of the Church of England. "We haven't separated from them, and so we're coming over to establish that here." And as you guys will talk about the Pilgrims, they were coming over to run away from that culture. And so that's where we see it. My family, I guess if we're talking about Thanksgiving, we celebrate it and more of the thought of us getting together as a family and thanking the Lord. And we see that, I guess some of that within the pilgrims. They were thanking God for that first harvest and they were celebrating with the people that had survived through that dreadful first year. And then also you would see the Native Americans that came apart and celebrated with them during that first harvest. Cause they were the ones that helped teach them how to grow the crops, how to fish. How to do those type of things, and how to live in this environment opposed to where they were from. So kind of, I guess some of the history that I had found within that.

Ben Cline
I always think back when I get questions like this, that my worst subject in school was history. And so I have to do a lot of looking, but I kind of wanted to focus a little bit on the Pilgrims and their faith. Because our celebration of Thanksgiving does really revolve more around the Pilgrims than it does the Puritans. And there's a difference there. But it was interesting reading about the pilgrims, because they truly were separatists from the Church of England. They left England in 1608 and they interestingly went to Holland to seek religious freedom there; to be able to worship according to their conscience. And they were only there for, I think, 12 years or something before they decided to leave there. Because the economy and the culture there was not really allowing them to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish. And so they set off for the new world, and ended up landing in Massachusetts in 1620. And that's all of the history that I really wrote down. But I was just focusing on the beliefs of the Pilgrims being separatists from the Church of England. Number one: they rejected the institutional Church of England as Separatists. And so the first thing that I was thinking of, that I was reading about, is that they believed that the worship of God must originate in the inner man. And so I was just thinking of, what are some of the scriptures that were maybe running through their minds as they were formulating that sense of worship. John 4:24, "God is spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and truth." So they were probably seeking the truth of worshiping God. Luke 4:8, "Jesus says, 'worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." And I think that's probably something that they were seeking; was to be worshiping God only and not the institution that they felt like man had created. Psalm 66:4, it says, "all the earth bows down to you. They sing praise to you, they sing praises to your name." Romans 12:1, this is a familiar verse to us, "present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your spiritual service of worship." And so they had this desire to be worshiping God according to the way that they understood God was asking them to worship Him. And then the second part of what I was reading about, what the pilgrims believed is that they didn't see church as a building. They didn't really see church as this physical institution, but they saw it more as we see it now. We talk about this a lot in church, that church is not this building that you come to, but it is the body of Christ. And that really goes on and is talked about more in Romans 12, starting in verse three. He talks about how the body of Christ, we all have gifts that, He's made us all gifted in different ways. But the reason why, is because He wants us to work together as the body of Christ, as the church. And so I think those were maybe just some things that they could have studied as they were formulating that belief system that they came over to the new world with.

Gary Schick
Yeah, in many ways they were kind of the seed from which modern evangelicalism has grown. In many ways, in terms of independent churches, in terms of Back to the Bible, in terms of a personal faith versus an institutional faith. And I think you both drew the line really well. I think it gets confusing in people's minds; people say Puritan and mean Pilgrims. And yeah, actually the difference between the Puritans and the Separatists is right there in the names. And what they were seeing happening in England is something that we are seeing. I mean, it's been going on for ages. There is a tendency, however the church begins, for it to slowly institutionalize and to sort of start to drift away from scripture. And so shortly after the reformation, England was kind of going back and forth in its relationship to Catholicism, and the Church of England was kind of the result. And there were some really great things about it. It had reformed to the scripture in some ways, but not completely in others. And there was an institutional aspect which maybe wasn't so great, but there were some good things happening. And so the Puritans were a group within who, their goal was to purify, Puritans to purify the church from within. So the Puritans are the ones who hung in there and they said, "we are the Church of England, we are not leaving the Church of England. We are going to be God's light within to bring this institution around to a more biblical base." The separatists, just by definition, they separated out. They didn't go to church at the local Episcopal church, which was the Church of England. They had their gatherings in the countryside, and houses and farmhouses, and whatever; barns. And really, the famous guy from them is John Bunyan, who wrote The Pilgrim's Progress. Sadly, I'll bet most of our listeners have never read The Pilgrim's Progress. But there was a time when pretty much, in every Christian home in America you had three books. You had the Bible, you had Fox's Book of Martyrs, and you had John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress. And Pilgrim's Progress, he wrote it while he was in jail and starts as if he's, "While I was in jail I had this dream," or something to that effect. And it is an allegory, where it's very symbolic, this guy's journey from the city of Destruction, which is the city of this world to the heavenly kingdom. And how he came, first, as he's coming out, he's hearing the words of the prophets and he's fleeing freeing for his life, and he flees the city of destruction. He finally comes to the foot of the cross, where literally the burden drops off his back and he receives the gift. So they had a very evangelical understanding of the gift by salvation, by faith through Christ and Christ alone. Great book. If you've never read it, read it. But as you pointed out, these separatists as you pointed out Ben, these separatists first go to Holland. And one of the things that I remember about them is that they're actually doing pretty well there, but their kids, just like our kids, are starting to blend in with the culture and speak the language of the culture. And for them, that literally meant speaking another language. Speaking Dutch as opposed to English, and just taking on the Dutch culture, and maybe in some other ways starting to drift away from their Biblical roots. And so they're like, "no, this isn't good," and so they go back to England and they eventually board the Mayflower. And after a horrific voyage, they land in New England, north of where they wanted. They wanted to go further south where it was a little warmer. They get there. Have you ever watched the show Alone? Basically you're watching 10 people out starve one another, trying to win 50 or 500 grand, and whoever is basically the last one who can take it out there. And every now and then somebody will bring down an elk or something. They'll bring down some massive animal, and they'll have some food to survive on. But, this is the pilgrims, they get---and the thing about Alone that is so appropriate to this, is they put these people, these 10 people in some remote location late enough in the year that they really don't have time to build, gather, and prepare for winter. And so it really is, it's a show of just scratching by, and that was the pilgrims. They were the first episode of Alone. They get to New England when it's well past time to plant or even really harvest. Winter's coming, they have to pull together some bare bone shelters, people are sick, they're sick from the voyage. I think, as we've pointed out, I think over half of them died that winter. The handful that were left are taking care of the sick and it's ugly. These people are sick, their---well, I probably can't say it on the radio. It's coming out from everywhere, let's just put it that way, and they are really sick. And so the people that are left are having to change the clothing and change the bedding and it's gross. And they only would've survived, I think based on the kindness of the natives. And I think in our minds, the way we've kind of gone to school, and that we've dreamed up this image of the first Thanksgiving, it's probably a little different than the way it really was. I think well, what did you say, Jonathan? You thought they probably ate eel, because that's what the natives had helped them learn to fish. I mean, whether there was any Turkey, there was probably venison. One of the things I remember reading is that they did play games. So we talk about, "oh, they've secularized Thanksgiving with all this football." Well, they probably didn't play football, but as you point out, they may have played lacrosse, the native game. There was some friendship there as time unfolds, they probably didn't continue to treat those natives at all the way they should have. But they were treated well by the natives, and probably only survived because of them. Teaching them to plant, teaching them to fish, teaching them to so many things. And so I think there's some good that we can come together about, and say, "you know what, thank you Lord that there were some people who welcomed them to this land." Would that it had stayed that way, I don't think the Pilgrims, who were looking for some religious toleration didn't turn around and end up being all that tolerant as they set up shop in New England. But history happened and we are still a work in progress. I think that's what America is, it is a work in progress. But there's some pictures there that I think, this is what we need to strive for. And as I was thinking about this, as we were even talking right before we dug in, I thought about those words in Revelation 7 where John talks about what's coming. He says, "and after this, I looked and behold a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from every tribe and people and language standing before the throne and before the land clothed in white with palm branches in their hands and crying out in a loud voice, 'salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb." So as Christians, we have some distant memories of what that might have been. We really don't know a great deal, but we also know where we're going. And I think Thanksgiving can be a day to strive toward. A good day for all of us, who in one way or another, found ourselves in this wonderful land of plenty. And making America what it should have been and should be. Just one nation of people from every background, for people of every background where the gospel can be freely offered to people of every background. And boy, that is my prayer, is that we'll come together and just really honor Jesus in our own homes. Enjoy the day. It's only a day, they had it, I think, for several days. Was it three to five or something? Three days. So can you just imagine, stop. We kind of do that at the end of the year. Between Christmas and new years, everything slows way down. That's what they did. They just slowed down to give thanks for the harvest and to give thanks to the Lord.

What's New at the Cross Reference Library?

Fruit Full - What do your kids know about the fruit of the Spirit? Maybe they can rattle off the list: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. But do they really understand what the fruits look like in daily life? Christie Thomas is here to help you connect your children to the power of the Holy Spirit—and help your entire family learn a lot along the way! Each of these 100 devotionals will inspire your family with thought-provoking questions, real-life applications, and more. She also includes hands-on activities you can try when there’s time. Fruit Full offers real understanding of how the Spirit will help your kids grow in their own beautiful, Jesus-reflecting character. With this book as your guide, the whole family will learn to grow abundant “fruit” together.

How We Love Matters - Racism is alive and well in the church. Racism has, in fact, been taught within the church for so long most of us don’t even recognize it anymore. Pastor Albert Tate, a dynamic speaker and rising leader within the church world, guides readers in acknowledging this fact, encouraging siblings in Christ to sit together in racial discomfort to examine the role they may play in someone else’s struggle. How We Love Matters is a series of nine moving letters, reminiscent of Dr. King’s Letter from Birmingham Jail, about different aspects of American and Christian culture. In letters that include Dear Whiteness, Dear America, and Dear Church, Tate calls out racism in the world, the church, and within himself and his reader. The book educates and enlightens in a way that flips the church on its head. It looks to the life of our Savior Jesus Christ as a clear and inspiring model for how we need to treat and love one another as siblings and neighbors, regardless of differences like skin color, culture, language, or beliefs. Tate believes that the only way to make change is by telling the truth about where we are—relationally, internally, and spiritually. How We Love Matters is an exposition of relevant biblical truth, a clarion call for all believers to examine how they see and understand each other, and it is a way forward toward justice, reconciliation, and healing.

California Misconceptions - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Michael Gleb and Matthew Gleb, and Pastor Mike introduced us to his brother Matthew, who preaches in North Carolina.

Michael Gleb
Hello and welcome to Ask the Pastor. My name is Michael Gleb and I'm the pastor of Torrington Baptist Tabernacle and I'm joined today by a special co-host. This is my brother Matthew Gleb, and Matthew is from North Carolina. Matthew, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Matthew Gleb
Yeah, like you said, my name is Matt. I'm the youth pastor in Greenville, North Carolina at People's Baptist Church and I've been there now for 10 years and the Lord's really blessed in our ministry there. Excited to be a part of a staff, about six of us on staff, and we run about 450 people on Sunday morning. And I have a youth group, about 40 to 50 kids, and I just really love serving the Lord.

Michael Gleb
Amen. I think it's a unique experience that's obviously different from being a pastor, is being on staff at a church and serving under a pastor. And sometimes the pastoral staff can be underappreciated sometimes. But also, it can be a tremendous blessing and you have an opportunity to work with people that even a pastor doesn't get the opportunity to work at. But anyway again, you said that you had been on staff for 10 years at People's Baptist there in Greenville, North Carolina. Talk to us about some of the duties that you have had over your tenure there.

Matthew Gleb
Yeah, I started right out of college and we have a Christian school there. And so Pastor Butler, who's actually also my father-in-law, hired me on to teach at the school. So I taught there full-time for a couple years, and knowing that I did not wanna teach forever he, and he knew that as well. And we started to transition out of that position and I started a college ministry at East Carolina University. We called it a Turning Point College Ministry. And I had a great time doing that for several years, for four years actually, and saw a freshman class come in and work with them until they graduated and got to see several students saved. And I got to participate in a couple of their weddings and actually marry off a couple of them as well. So that was really cool to see. And then during that time our youth pastor at the time, left our church to help his father-in-law in Pennsylvania. So I started pulling double duty with being a college pastor and youth pastor, and we were able to do that for about a semester and I just could not keep up with preaching three times a week. Still teaching a little bit in the school and just all the other response was that, "come on a church staff." And so we handed off the college manager to someone else, and I was able to be a full-time youth pastor from then on out and still work a little bit in our Christian school as well. But a lot to do, a lot of different facets of our ministry. And so it's great to be a part of a little---have my hand in a little bit of each one.

Michael Gleb
Yeah. I know a little bit about your history and I know that you've coached basketball, is that right?

Matthew Gleb
I've coached all the sports, not qualified for some, but basketball, baseball, soccer.

Michael Gleb
Oh, soccer. Wow, that's an interesting one. I was an assistant coach for soccer in Fairfax, Virginia for a while, but never was the head coach. And I mean, you've done just about anything that you can do in a church ministry. You've done it, you sing in the choir.

Matthew Gleb
I was singing in the choir and with some scheduling conflicts, I sing whenever I know the song. Now, I'm not able to go to our practices, because of some scheduling conflicts in our ministry. But yeah, love singing. I never sang ever in my whole life until I went to our church: learned how to sing a little bit and learned how to read some music. But mainly I sing with our frontline music and on our church staff we have a singing all of our staff we can sing pretty well. So that's fun. But yeah, singing has become a new part of the resume.

Michael Gleb
Amen. That's good. Yeah, I know that you almost have to be sort of a renaissance man when you come in on staff somewhere. For instance, I had my education in history, history education, secondary education. But when I started teaching, it was teaching. I taught computer classes, I taught PEs, I taught health, I taught all kinds of things that I had zero experience or almost zero knowledge in by the way. So I'm sure some of those parents wouldn't like to hear that. But anyway, that's kind of how it is.

Matthew Gleb
And we really cannot forget about the most important facet of any ministry is being able to stack chairs and move tables. I can move all sorts of tables. Plastic, metal, wooden, you ask and I've done it.

Michael Gleb
Yeah, I told the congregation, I said, "pre-pastoring is 80% reminding people of the gospel and 20% setting up chairs. So yeah, I understand that. That's so true. Now, you don't forget, there is a better half to the Gleb family. And there are also should I say an offspring? Talk to us a little bit about your wife and family.

Matthew Gleb
I've been married now for nine years, her name is Casey and we met in college. We went to West Coast Baptist College, and that's where we met and started dating. We dated for about a year and a half and then I proposed to her after I graduated and she still had a year left. And so I started working at the church one year before she got there, and we enjoyed our time together alone. And then we started to want to have a child, and this may relate to some people, but it took us four and a half years before we were able to have our son. So that's pretty tough. And all of you out there that may be struggling to have a child, or it just doesn't come as quickly as it does others. It was definitely a burden for us for a while, but we were able to have a son, his name is Chandler Michael Gleb. He's the best, and I love him so much. And now we are currently wanting to have another child. And so if any listeners out there have a good prayer life, please pray for me and my wife to be able to have another kid.

Michael Gleb
As your brother, I got a little excited there. I thought there was an announcement coming to the greater part of eastern Wyoming and western Nebraska coming up there, but that's good.

Matthew Gleb
-----You would not be the first to know.

Michael Gleb
We're glad to hear that. Chandler is a special boy. I love him to death and we're excited that Chandler's in your life. He was born in 2020, and just kind of a little bit of a family history here. Our dad, Matt and my's dad passed away in late 2020 to Covid, but Chandler was born in March I believe, right? And then yeah, Chandler was born in March and so he was able to meet dad, and dad was able to hold him and that was a blessing. Now, I had you come out here and preach for me every year. We've had you here every year except for last year because we had a covid scare in our church and then there was literally Southwest Airlines canceling flights because of pilots on strike and all this stuff. So you preached to us online while we set out for a couple of weeks going to online services but you have a connection to the west. How long did you live here?

Matthew Gleb
As you told me, cause I did not know this We moved here in 93, so I was three years old. I'm a 1990 baby, and that's really fun to say these days. To say, "I was born in the 1900s," for all these young people around. But we moved here in 93, and then moved out back east in 2003. So, I was here for 10 years and then while I was in college, my parents moved back. So most of my Christmas's while I was in college were in Cheyenne.

Michael Gleb
Yeah. So, I know this is probably putting you on the spot. It's not the formative years of your life. For instance, I moved here when I was 15, so that shows you the age gap here between us. But I moved here at 15, so it was formative years for me. But can you tell us anything maybe that you like about the west or something you remember about the west, or something that you appreciate about the area?

Matthew Gleb
Yeah, I love the wide openness. You get out east and there's trees everywhere, so you can't see very far and you kind of feel enclosed. But out here it's just kind of wide open. So I do love that. I miss the western culture of the cowboys. And I miss the mountains, and being able to actually see the mountains in North Carolina. If you get into the mountains, you can't see them anymore because there's just trees everywhere. So, I love that. Love the weather. I loved winters here for a while as a kid, cause we had to play in the snow. Obviously, I didn't have to drive through it, so I know my mom hated that. And my mom and dad were on the precipice of divorce several times as dad would be forcing our car down the highway.

Michael Gleb
Know no murder!

Matthew Gleb
Yeah, he'd be forcing us down the highway. We're going to church and we only had to drive an hour to church one way. So we've seen our fair share of accidents. But yeah, I love the west, and love coming out here to visit. Love coming right here to preach to a lot of good people here. And yeah, I like the culture.

Michael Gleb
Now, you came to know Christ here in the west. Am I mistaken about that?

Matthew Gleb
Yeah, I was saved in 2001 when we were going to Cavalry Baptist Temple in Fort Collins, Colorado. And I got saved one night when my little sister was scared, that she came into our room and she was scared and I was like, "Jessica, there's nothing to be afraid of. No one's gonna get us in our house." She goes, "No, I'm not afraid of that. I'm afraid of dying and going to hell." And I've heard the gospel message my whole life. I could quote the verses, but I feel like it was truly then that the Lord convicted my heart and I realized, "Oh wow, I don't believe that I would be going to heaven if I died." And it just kind of hit me all at once. And we could not wait to talk to our parents; they were actually, I think, at the grocery store. And so when they got back, my dad took me into our computer room, and my mom took my little sister. And he led me to the Lord, and we knew the verses, talk together, and that's the night that I trusted Christ as my savior.

Michael Gleb
Yeah, it's one thing to know what the Bible says, concerning salvation. It's one thing to know all the verses, it's even another thing to believe there is a God. But to have a personal relationship with Jesus is the most important thing to accept Him personally. And so that's a great story. It just reminds us of how many people grow up in church and never truly accept Christ as their Savior.

Matthew Gleb
We actually just recently had a woman at our church, she grew up in a certain denomination, and you could say that she loved God. That she appreciated the Bible and she enjoyed bringing her family to church. But they visited our church and her oldest daughter got saved at camp, and her husband had already been saved when he was in college. But she came to a point where she realized, "I can be as sincere as I want to be about religion and about God," but she came to know that, "I never trusted Him as my savior." And sincerity will not give you everlasting life.

Michael Gleb
Right.

Matthew Gleb
Being a good person and even really pushing everything you have into your religion, really means nothing. It's all about a relationship with Jesus. And I'm so glad that, Ms. Bear is her name, she actually was saved this Summer. Yeah, that's a blessing.

Michael Gleb
Let me put you on the spot as we end up here. Churches out here are not incredibly large. There's probably a few of them. I've been to some churches, even worked on staff of some churches; churches back east that were bigger in size that oftentimes have a staff of pastors: if you will, assistant pastors, youth pastors and things of that nature. Matt, from personal experience, and I really don't mean to try to put you on the spot here, but can you give us, if you happen to be in a church with an assistant pastor, here's what I've seen before. A church member may get angry and they don't direct it towards the pastor, because of the office. And so what they do is, they almost place their anger, it's misplaced anger, onto a staff member. They feel like they can mistreat a staff member. They feel like they can mistreat a youth pastor, or such and such. So I may ask you a question, what would you recommend of being 10 years on a church staff, what would you recommend for those maybe listening that do have a larger church that have the staff? How do you treat a staff member? Is it that way out there?

Matthew Gleb
On the senior pastor?

Michael Gleb
No, no, no. If you're, I mean, as experienced, how would you treat, if you're just a regular layman, how do you treat the staff person and their family?

Matthew Gleb
Yeah. I think it's easy to overlook the staff member, because the pastor is there in front of us every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, depending on your schedule. And so he gets a lot of the due recognition and appreciation for his office, and everything that he puts into the church. And this is no bash on our church. I believe our church does a great job, but I've seen it growing up in church my whole life. Where the people who don't have the title as senior pastor, that they may be forgotten. We have a pastor appreciation month, and a lot of times we recognize the pastor, but then there's a whole other pastoral staff that is doing a lot of work as well. And picking up a lot of the work so that the pastor could just study and preach and not have to do all the ins and outs, weekly things that we do. So I believe my dad probably did the best I've ever seen out of anyone. Helping to recognize and appreciate a whole church staff. And he would give honor to the pastor, but he would quickly follow that up knowing that the other families that are involved get their appreciation as well. And he wanted to take care of them. And the church staff gets a lot of the pressure, but sometimes the compensation is not as much. And so it's almost like the balance is totally different. So it's a good thing for maybe even your church to reevaluate how you take care of your staff, how you recognize them. We're not doing this to pat them back. We're not doing this for "atta-boys." But man, they don't hurt.

Michael Gleb
Sometimes it's needed.

Matthew Gleb
Yeah, they really do help keep people on fire. It's good to know that what you said spoke to someone's heart. It's good to know that, you know, you were a blessing to somebody. So be willing to share that. Be willing to be a blessing to those families in any way, shape or form.

Michael Gleb
Well, Matt, thank you for joining us. I love you and I'm so thankful you're my brother first of all, but that you came on and helped some people.

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