What Does Your Enneagram Mean With Jesus? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Schick, Ben Cline, and Jonathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick
So great to be with you guys, and today we're digging into something that I don't know if any of us had heard of before, but we've done a little digging and thankful these guys actually dug a little deeper than I did today. So I'm probably gonna let you guys carry a lot of it. You know, I think that this is probably a timely topic because, as we've kind of learned a little bit about it, apparently this is not something new. And yet it's gaining traction in the culture and in the church. And so, our listeners are probably going, "So, what is it?" Okay, so here's the email I got, it's called, "What does your Enneagram mean with Jesus? Would your Ask the Pastor team like to tackle the subject of Enneagrams? What is an Enneagram? Is this some new thing? Is it biblically sound? And anything else you might want to say about it." So, Jonathan, what would you like to say about it?

Jonathan Hernandez
Well, I guess I haven't really heard much about it coming into, you know, getting our email. So I had to do some research to see what it was all about. And so, some of the origins, I guess, and it was tough....

Gary Schick
Could you tell us what it is? Just so our listeners know.

Jonathan Hernandez
So, Enneagram is, I would guess I would say: a personality type test and there's nine points inside of a circle, and you're one of those nine points. I can't think of all of them right off the top of my head. But you can become stronger in each of those points as you balance yourself, I guess, between the nine points somehow. And so it was just kind of a lot of, a personality test and the sort. And so, looking back at some of the origins or the history of it. There's a guy named Oscar Ichazo and he was trying to, or I guess he had a school of some sort and they were praying, I guess, I don't know what you wanna call it. They were doing something in their prayer circles. And so, he decided that he wanted to go on a, sort of like a seven day divine coma. And he was essentially in a hallucinogenic place, cause they had taken some sort of drug I guess. And he said that during those seven days, this angel came to him and exposed Oscar to 108 different Enneagrams. And so this angel comes and he gives him these 108 and what we call now the Enneagram. And so that was kind of odd, I guess. I would say this, hearing these origins, I would say that it's a dangerous place to step into.

Gary Schick
It's not Christian prayer really.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, especially if you're using drugs to get to a place to have spiritual encounters, I guess. So he, you know, revealed that information, and you can see there's some videos on YouTube of Oscar Ichazo. Actually, I think it was him that was kind of talking about how these things came about. Do we believe that that could truly happen? He could hear from an angel and give him things? Well, probably; but what is the angel that he's hearing from? Right? Like I would say that he's probably hearing from a fallen angel here. And Ichazo, he admits to having contact with spirits, including an angel called Meditron. He claims his group was guided by an interior master. To me, this sounds a lot like new age. And he talks about having a spirit guide or a higher authority often. He had a disciple, I guess, named Claudio Naranjo, and Claudio came up with the actual types that we see now in the Enneagram. And he said that he gained these through automatic writing. I don't know if you guys have heard of automatic writing, which is also demonic. So, I guess if our listeners haven't heard of what an automatic writing is, so basically he gets a piece of paper and a pen out and then he hands his body over to a spirit, and his hand can be used to write whatever the spirit wants to write, I guess. I would say that's pretty demonic. And so, like, a lot of these things is what I was seeing as I was doing research on the origins of what came up. Most of the videos I had seen didn't talk in good light about the Enneagram. So, it's a whole thing about finding your true self and exposing your false self. You could go down the path like this, new age I guess, really that's how it sounds to me; a lot of new age. We see people connect with this so much, because I think we wanna know who we are, you know? We wanna know, "what is our purpose?" And so, having this program or this personality test, I guess, that is....because when you take it, it really does align you with who you seem to be. You know, I'm more of an introvert. I wanna be a peacemaker and I would imagine if I were to take this test, peacemaker is one of the nine. And I would imagine that's probably where I would land. And as I talked to friends, they would say, "Hey, I was a five," or "I was a four." And then I'm like, "Yeah, that's who you kind of are, you know, when I talk to you." And so, how you know that this test puts them in line with that. And I think that really speaks to us, that we wanna know who we are. We wanna know how we can become better. And this thing, saying that you expose your false self, we would all like to have our false self exposed and really step into who God has created us to be.

Jonathan Hernandez
And this test really helps you step into who this test wants you to be, I guess. And so as I, you know, as I look through some of that, I think of Proverbs 20 and it says, "the purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out." Who is the man of understanding? That would be the man who fears God. And I think for us, if we wanna know who we truly are, it comes down to knowing God. And if we know God, He who knows us better than anybody else right? I think we'll know who we are through Christ and be able to step into where God has us. And so I would say, do we need an Enneagram? I would say: No! Jesus didn't need one. We don't see Him walking around saying, "Oh, I was a four," or "I was eight." You know, we don't see Him talking about those. The disciples, you know, they didn't need one. We don't see the apostle Paul talking about it at all. I think the Bible gives us everything that we need. And I would encourage you, if you're wanting to know who you are, find out who Jesus is. You know, and really connect to God, and allow God to give you who you truly are. We don't need the Enneagram to be holy. The Bible gives us everything that we need for life and godliness. So that's where I would sit.

Ben Cline
Yeah, thanks Jonathan, I totally agree. You know, doing research about something like this is very telling of where things come up. And I appreciate that you talked about the spiritual side of this, the spiritual origins of it. Because, you know, both of those guys that you talked about, Ichazo and Naranjo, they were occultists. And, you know, this is a dangerous source for us to use as believers to try to figure out who we are. You know, it is something that we have to be talking about today because it's something that is becoming more and more popular. You know, starting in 2016 and 2017, Christian, you know, publishing houses, started publishing books about the Enneagram. And it's becoming more and more prevalent and more and more books are coming out in favor of the Enneagram being used in evangelical circles. And so we have to be really careful. One of the scriptures that I was drawn to, as I was thinking about this is 1 John 4. And I just wanna read these six verses real quick. It says, "beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is already in the world. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error." And so I think that those are really good, you know, guiding principle verses when we talk about things like the Enneagram. Jonathan, you talked a lot about the origins of it and, you know, there's a few questions out there about it. Number one is, "well, it's just a personality test, right?" If you do a little bit of research on this, there's other personality tests out there that are really popular. And there's, you know, this ebb and flow of popular personality tests that are out there, but all those personality tests are based in research. The thing that's different about the Enneagram, is that it's based out of these, you know, occultic origins and it's not research based. And so, then you come across the question, you know, and even within evangelical circles, there's people who have done this test and say, "well, it really works for me." And so you come across those people and it says, "Well, that Enneagram describes me perfectly, so how could it be dangerous? How could it be wrong?" And, you know, one of the things that I was listening to, it was a podcast where a woman named, Marcia Montenegro, she was speaking about this. And she's really a good resource for, you know, having a biblical view of the Enneagram, and some other things as well. But before she became a Christian, she was a professional astrologist. And, you know, the example that she uses is, she says, "I had clients as an astrologist that I drew up, you know, astrology charts for. And they looked at those and they said, 'that describes me perfectly." And she said, "So, you know, we just have to understand that the reason why we look at things like this and think that they're good, that they're working for us is because as human beings, we search for patterns in everything. And, you know, if we see those ties, we're making those ties because we're searching for those patterns." But the question that really remains for us in thinking about things like the Enneagram is, you know, where is it focused, and what does it make me focus on? The danger, I think, in the Enneagram is that it doesn't make you focus on Christ, it makes you focus on self. And that can be, you know, truly said of a lot of personality tests. Like, they're really trying to help you understand who you are better. But that's really not where our identity is. Our identity is in Christ Jesus as believers. So we need to just be careful. I mean, you know, thinking back to 1 John 4, that's really what it's telling us; is to be cognizant of what is going on around us and is it backed by scripture? Or is it not backed by scripture? Is it backed by us focusing on Jesus Christ? Or is it backed by us focusing on ourselves? And so I think those are some questions that we have to to think about.

Gary Schick
Good stuff guys. Yeah, when I first looked at this, that was my first thought was, you know, some kind of a personality thing. Which, personality tests can be helpful. They can help you understand your set of strengths and weaknesses. I mean, Solomon and Proverbs talked about different kinds of personalities a little bit; 500 years before Christ, the Greeks. That's kind of where my head went with this. I kind of came up with four different personality types: the choleric (kind of a leader), the phlegmatic, the sanguine, the melancholic. And each of those personality types, having strengths and weaknesses and, you know, the only perfect all good personality being Jesus. And so, what can be helpful about those things is, we all kind of have a hardwired personality and however you label it, knowing your strengths and weaknesses and identifying, you know, make your strength stronger and identify your sinful tendencies; and Lord help me work on those. The problem with the Enneagram, as you guys have both so well pointed out is, this isn't going back through time or legitimate psychology in terms of research and looking at how different personalities work. I mean, the soul is not like other parts of our body. It doesn't have these different parts. And so, there's probably a million ways that you can kind of do models of the human personality. The problem with this one is it's occult origins. And so it's kind of a good idea taken in a bad direction. You know, it's kind of like, sorry to offend some of our listeners, but it's kind of like when the Mormons come along to you and say, "Well, you know, the Bible is God's word, and we also have, 'well, you know, Paul said very clearly, if even an angel of light proclaims to you another gospel, let him be a curse." And we know who that other angel of light was that showed up to Joseph Smith; he was Satan. We know who the angel "Gabriel" was that showed up with a very different gospel to Muhammad; he was Satan. And how do we know this? Well, their gospels do not match the gospel in scripture at all. They are works related gospels, working your way. Always Satan wants us, it's like with every sin, he wants us to work our way there; and you fail. And yeah, we do fail. Only Jesus can get us to heaven, and only Jesus is the perfect personality. And in terms of drawing on sources that are so heavily influenced by occultism, it's worrisome to me. You know, just as we were talking, Isaiah 8:19-20 comes to mind, which in the English Standard Version says, "And when they say to you, 'inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,' should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?" And then verse 20, "to the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." So, you know, and just to balance this a little bit, you know, one of my seminary professors pointed out: all truth is God's truth. Unbelievers can often---and often do---discover things that are part of God's truth. God created this world. Everything that the scientific world legitimately gets right in their study of the natural world, they're studying part of God's truth. So, you know, I have no problem partaking of human medicine, you know? Even though, "this medication wasn't discovered by a Bible scholar." Well, you know, maybe not, but it was discovered by somebody who was doing their diligence to study God's creation and discovered this. That's legitimate. But when it's coming to you from an occult source, from a demonic source, it's coming from the wrong direction, and it's gonna take you in the wrong direction. And, you know, there is this tendency, even without the occult involvement, where our world gets about as wide as our own belly buttons. We just become so focused on ourselves. And that would be another part of the dangerous side of this. And so, I think we come together and agree. Are there some legitimate personality tests out there that can be helpful with you and, you know, even in your relationships with others? Absolutely. But I wouldn't go to the Enneagram for any of that. And the other is, you know, keeping ourselves rooted in God's word as we try, you know, our goal is to grow---not just as a person to become the best that I can be---but to be who Jesus died for me to be. Your best self in Christ!

What’s in the Cross Reference Library? Profound Christian Living Material!

Anxious for Nothing - It’s a low-grade fear. An edginess, a dread. It’s a wind that won’t stop howling. It’s not so much a storm as it is the certainty that one is coming. Always…coming. There is misfortune to be had out there. It’s just a matter of time. And what about the tsunami of personal challenges? You, or someone you know, is facing a job loss, fighting cancer, dealing with divorce, battling addiction, or facing financial hardship. We worry. We even feel anxious about feeling anxious. Take heart, my friend. We all encounter anxiety, but we don’t have to give in to it. There is a path out to the valley of fret, and the road map is found in the verses of Philippians 4:4-8. There are some key mile markers along the road to peace and calm. 

Celebrate God’s goodness.

Ask God for help.

Leave your concerns with Him.

Meditate on good things.

Is God sovereign over your circumstances? Is He mightier than your problems? Does He have answers to your questions? According to scripture, the answer is: yes, yes, and yes! Trust Him and you can “be anxious for nothing.” 

Come Thirsty - Have been sipping out of a swamp? Drinking the deluge of life? There’s stuff in that water that you were never meant to drink. Pills? They may numb the pain, but they can’t heal a heart. Money? Sure, it can buy what your body needs for survival, but it can’t supply what your soul needs. Religion? It may pacify, but it can never satisfy. The busyness of church may hide a thirst, but only Christ quenches it. Don’t you long to flush out the fear…anxiety…guilt? You can. All are welcome. You don’t have to be rich, religious, or successful; you simply need to follow the instructions on what—or better, who—to drink. Him. For the sake of those who need your love, hydrate your soul! Heed your thirst. Drink deeply and often. And out of you will flow rivers of living water. 

Traveling Light - Weary travelers. You’ve seen them—everything they own crammed into their luggage. Staggering through terminals and hotel lobbies with overstuffed suitcases, trunks, duffels and backpacks. Backs ache, feet burn, eyelids droop. We’ve all seen people like that. At times, we are people like that—if not with our physical luggage, then at least with our spiritual load. We all lug loads we were never intended to carry. Fear, worry, discontent. No wonder we get so weary. We’re worn out from carrying that excess baggage. Wouldn’t it be nice to lose some of those bags? That’s the invitation of Max Lucado. With the twenty-third Psalm as our guide, let’s release some of the burdens we were never intended to bear. 

How to Protect Yourself from Suicide

I’ve noticed that when it comes to suicide, there is a lot of advice out there for the loved ones of a person who is suicidal. They are given various options on what they can do to help prevent their loved one from commiting suicide. But, what about the person who is struggling with suicide? Are they helpless? Can’t they also be responsible for protecting themselves? I’m not saying they should be blamed for mental health issues; however, I also believe that it could be empowering to them if there were things they could do to help protect themselves as well.

While I haven’t struggled with suicidal thoughts myself, I have struggled with depression most of my adult life. And I know that when it comes to mental health there are good days and there are bad days. On the good days people often worry about what they may do on the bad days. Similarly, most people who struggle with suicidal impulses, have good days where they dread being the person they become and having the thoughts they have on the bad days. But, we aren’t limited to just sitting around waiting for and fearing the bad days. Just as I can do things on my good days to help prepare myself for the bad depression days, I have to believe that people with suicidal impulses can use their good days to put up some “safety nets” in order to prevent the worst on their bad days. So, I’ve collected a list of tips, tricks, and advice that could hopefully help people protect themselves from suicide, and here it is:

Develop a Safety Plan

• List out warning signs which help you identify that you are starting to experience significant, severe thoughts of suicide. 

• Write out a safety plan and actively turn to it when the warning signs start to show.

---

Preventative Steps You Can Take:

• Have a list of people to contact during a crisis.

Create this list by being honest with people and telling them about your struggles with suicidal thoughts. Ask them if they are willing and capable of being one of your accountability partners. Call or go to them when suicidal thoughts threaten to get the best of you.

•  Remind yourself that the feeling will pass.

It has before and always will. In contrast, acting on a temporary feeling has permanent consequences. Place notes or signs with this sentiment around your home, vehicle, and workspace, so they will be there when you need reminders.

• Find someone or something to live for: a family member, a friend, or a pet, which depends on you staying alive to take care of them; or even a future goal to accomplish.

Sometimes it is simply easier to stay motivated; to keep living for the sake of people or animals that you love, than it is to stay living for yourself. And that’s okay. There is nothing wrong with staying alive because of the knowledge that you are needed. And if you aren’t certain you are needed at the moment, then, on your good days, find a way to make yourself needed, so you have that safety net and knowledge for the bad days.

• On your good days work to sabotage your preferred suicide method, so when the bad days come it will be difficult to commit suicide.

Be honest with yourself about what your preferred method would be, and then limit your access to the things required to enact it. For example: unload guns, put dangerous things in a locked safe, take down any poles or hooks which can hold a lot of weight, have someone you trust be in charge of your meds-even over the counter ones like ibuprofen. Research shows that “method substitution”--choosing an alternate method when the original method is restricted--does not happen often. Put time and distance between yourself and your chosen method.

• Learn that you aren’t alone. No one is completely happy in their lives or their bodies. Most people have struggled with negative thoughts, and many with suicidal thoughts.

You aren’t abnormal. All those other people found ways to survive it and continue to live in spite of it/after it. They are proof that this can be overcome and you can win this battle.

• Figure out what kind of life you want and make a step by step plan for earning that life and work towards it.

A lot of people who have attempted suicide said that as they thought they were dying, they realized they didn’t actually want to die; they just wanted a different life. Starting a new life may seem hard or scary but it is a lot easier than suicide, and, if you think about it, what do you have to lose? Might as well try for a new life. Also, a step-by-step plan will give you a goal to focus on and each step completed will give you a feeling of success and accomplishment.

“Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me,

for in you my soul takes refuge;

in the shadow of your wings I will take refuge,

till the storms of destruction pass by.

I cry out to God Most High,

to God who fulfills his purpose for me.

He will send from heaven and save me;

he will put to shame him who tramples on me.

God will send out his steadfast love and his faithfulness.”

-Psalm 57:1-3 (ESV)

---

What Does the Bible Say to do When Life Starts to Crush Us?

* * *

It says to turn to God. He is our Savior from anything and everything. Ask Him for help, and trust that He will provide.

“Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.” - 1 Peter 5:6-7 (ESV)

God loves you and made you in His image. You are worthy of a life filled with love and purpose.

If you struggle accepting this truth emotionally, you can find practical things to do that will encourage emotional acceptance of it: helping other people, spreading God’s Word, finding a job which adds value to society. Work to live your life according to God’s grander purpose and eventually you will be able to see how valuable your life is, not only to God, but also to the world around you.

Ask God for help and He will show up.

God will provide a way through the struggle but those provisions aren’t always miraculous occurrences or instant healing. Most of the time God provides quietly, in practical ways: like a phone call from a friend when you’re close to the edge, or an unexpected income source to pay for the bills accrued from going to therapy.

Even when you don’t know how to ask for help for yourself, the Holy Spirit knows what you need and is crying out to the Father on your behalf.

“In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.” -Romans 8:26-27 (NIV)

---

Our world teaches us that the end goal of life is independence; but God wants us to accept our dependence on Him.

“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” -1 Corinthians 10:13 (ESV)

“But he (God) said to me (Paul), ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” -2 Corinthians 12:9-10 (ESV)

These verses aren’t claiming that life won’t be harder than we can handle. They are specifically talking about overcoming the temptations which the world throws at us. But even for those temptations, we are not supposed to rely on ourselves to overcome them:  it is God who “provides the way to escape”. God uses our weaknesses to show the world His strength in order to draw people to Him.

“My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.” -Psalms 73:26 (ESV)

The best way to fight thoughts of sadness and even suicide is to regularly stay in the Word of God.

Find verses which remind you of God’s presence and power and of how much He loves you. Memorize them so you can repeat them to yourself in times of anguish. His promises will help you endure these times.

“The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all.” -Psalms 34:18-19 (ESV)

“Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” -Philippians 4:6- (NIV)

Also see: Psalms 16:8; Psalms 23:4; Psalms 55:22; Psalms 94:18; Isaiah 53:4; Matthew 11:28-30; Romans 15:13; 1 Cor. 1:3-4; 2 Cor. 4:16-18; 1 Peter 5:6-10

---

Do not try to go it alone.

If you feel suicidal thoughts start to invade your mind, seek professional help immediately!

Call your therapist and/or go to the Emergency Room.

There is no need to go it alone. God wants us to cry out to Him, to seek out godly counsel from others, and when necessary, to request medical help. We live in a sin-cursed world, which means our bodies are imperfect and sometimes things like hormones or brain chemistry can be off balance. God gave humans the intelligence necessary to understand science and create medical solutions. There is nothing inherently wrong with using helpful medications. 

Remember, with medical solutions there is usually a period of trial and error, because everyone’s body is different and you need to find what works for you. If you try one method or medication and it doesn’t work, don’t give up. Try a different one until you find the right fit. Millions of people have had success with medical intervention; it could work for you as well.

Healing Takes Time

---

Contact the Suicide Prevention Lifeline

Call: 1-800-273-8255

or chat online: www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org

---

You can download a free printout of this information by going to our “Free Material” Page and clicking on “Protect Yourself from Suicide (full page)” or for a shorter version: “What Does the Bible Say to do When Life Starts to Crush Us?”.

---

This series of blog posts titled, “Holding on to Reason”, is named after Amanda’s favorite C.S. Lewis quote: “Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods.”

Click here for more stuff written by Amanda Hovseth.

How Should We View Social Media As Christians? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Schick, Ben Cline, and Jonathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick
So today's question, I'll kind of read it and then I'll explain it. It says, "Would your team like to tackle this article and help our listeners develop safeguards for their own personal use of social media? How should we view the phenomenon of social media?" So it was a Christianity Today article about a pastor. I think he was doing something called direct texting, and I don't know, is that even different than just regular texting? I'm not media savvy enough to know. But basically it was some conversation, and his wife knew about it, others knew about it and seemed to be okay with it. But at some point, it seemed to cross some kind of a line and he is now out of ministry. Which is a sad, always a sad thing to see a brother in Christ fall in a way that. And we've, boy, I've been hearing about it, really, my whole adult life, how ministers will fill in different ways. But the broader question is: Hey, all of us are involved in social media somehow. You know, whether it's through our computers or our phones, you know, if we have a Facebook page or something (more often than not, our churches have pages). It is so easy to communicate, and so easy to express ourselves. And there are so many ways we can connect, which is a good thing, but we can also get into trouble. You know, so how do we view it? And what safeguards should we set? Jonathan, what are your thoughts?

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, for sure. With social media really dominating our way of communication, I guess nowadays, we definitely need to take a step back and say, "Okay, these are the guardrails, the safeguards that I'll have in place as I communicate." I think, if we look in scripture, in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 it says, "Abstain from every form of evil." Or in the King James it says, "Abstain from all appearances of evil." And so how do we look at that and say, "Okay, as I interact on social media, I need to make sure that I'm living to the standard of what Christ set for us." And so, you know, what are we looking at? What are we, I guess, viewing as we're on those things? Having safeguards in place like: okay, if I notice anything that would be revealing of a lady, I'm not gonna look at those things. You know, we're friends with so many people on social media. I looked the other day and I'm friends with like, 1,100 people, or something like that. And how many of those people do I actually even know? And I'm just sitting here accepting friend requests from everybody, and not really looking to see, "who are these people?" And then, you know, you accept somebody and then, you know, a few days later you get a private message from them. And you know, all kinds of different things can be from that. And so we need to guard, I guess in that too, like, who are we friend requesting? You know, who are we allowing to become friends of ours on social media? I know I have a friend that his thought is always, "Well, if I don't accept them, how are they gonna hear the gospel?" And you know, I think about that; that's a good thought to have. But we also have to be cautious in how that looks, or how that goes. You know, I can't accept everybody, because some of these ladies that are on there, shouldn't be on my profile. So, that way I don't have to worry about looking at what they're posting, you know? So having those safeguards, you know, as a man, for those things. Another safeguard is, my wife has every password of mine. She knows every one of my social medias that I have---the passwords to those. She has access to my phone. Anytime she says, "Hey, let me look at your phone," you know, I have no problem handing it over. So I think having those safeguards in place, you know, as a husband and wife we know what our spouses are doing on social media. And we're okay with them looking at our phones whenever they feel that they need to. As a leader, I think, the Bible says that we'll be held at a higher standard, you know? So that also goes for us when we're on social media. You know, just like this pastor who had gotten in trouble, you know? His wife knew about the messages, the lady's husband knew about the messages, and they all felt like---I'm guessing we're just reading into the story. We're guessing that they're okay with the texting back and forth between those two, but at some point, where did it go? Um, too far. And so we have to know, what are our boundaries in that? Is my communication with another female, that's not my wife, or my mom or sister, you know, they can't go to a certain level of intimacy. They have to stay on that broad, you know, that baseline communication. And so, I think having some of those in place and knowing, "Okay, this is what I have in place, and I won't steer from that path. I'm not gonna test the boundaries." Cause I think we like to do that is, "If I get this close to the cliff without falling off, I'm okay." And no, we don't need to be that close. We need to have the boundary before the cliff, you know? So that way, we're not tempted to look over. And so I think those are kind of, you know, for me, my boundaries. I would probably include more stuff, but I just think, kind of that base thing of my communication. You know, I'm not communicating with women without my wife knowing about it. If I text somebody she knows that, "Hey, I texted this lady, this is the reason why I texted her." And so that way she knows, and she hears what I'm talking about.

Ben Cline
Yeah. Thank you Jonathan. I, you know, just echo a lot of the things that you said. I was just thinking, as you were talking too, that our lives have changed so much in the past 15 years, right? You know, I remember getting, and this was a long time ago, just to give you a hint of how old I am. But this was a long time ago that I remember getting my first friend request, which was over email for this new thing called Facebook. And it was from a family member, so I contacted her and I was like, "What is this?" And, you know, I just remember, and now our lives are so much revolving around the internet and, you know, access to and communicating so easily with other people on all these different apps. And, you know, it's just definitely something that we need to have a plan in place for. And I like the word that you used Jonathan: boundaries, because I think that that's really what it all comes down to. Is that you might be in a situation where you are married, right? And so you can set up those boundaries with your spouse. And you can say, "You know, I'm not gonna have that kind of interaction with somebody else without you having access to what's happening." And then also, the boundaries go further beyond that. Like you were saying, Jonathan: that you don't wanna walk right up to the edge of the cliff, just because it's the edge of the cliff and you're allowed to do that. But you set those boundaries back further. And there's a great passage, in Proverbs 4:23 it says, "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life." You know, and there's a bunch of other verses that are surrounding that, that are talking about what it looks like as a follower of God, as a believer in God. To follow after the path that He has laid out before us, and it's not a path of the world, it's a path of righteousness. And so, those boundaries that we set are boundaries that need to reflect that righteousness that God wants us to live in. And you also brought up 1 Thessalonians 5:22. I think when situations like this come up that, you know, we read about in the article, that was brought up to us; that that's one of the first thoughts that comes to mind as we're thinking about scripture. Is, you know, that we need to, "Abstain from all appearances of evil," because our intentions matter. And I think looking at this particular situation, that there were maybe not any ill intentions, but the truth of the matter is that appearances matter too. And so, and the reason why, is because there's a world who's looking on, and they need to be viewing, you know, Christ-like characteristics within us. And then, another thing that I was thinking about too is, you know, that we need to remember all of the things that Christ has done for us. In 1 Peter 2, just a few verses in here, it says, "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps. Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth. And while being reviled, He did not revile in return while suffering. He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting himself to Him who judges righteously. And He himself bore our sins and His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness for by His wounds, you were healed." And then verse 25 is so true about us. It says, "For you are continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls." And, you know, what powerful words I think those are, for us as believers. And really just, you know, if you're wondering how to handle situations in social media, I say, just go back to those two words: boundaries and righteousness. And those are some good guidelines.

Gary Schick
Right. Good stuff, Ben and Jonathan, you know, it is kind of an interesting thing. The internet, it's a new thing in the world, but there's no new sins. And so the internet is an opportunity, I think for, there's a lot of great ministry opportunity there to share the word of Christ. But there's also a lot of opportunity there to get into trouble. You know, I think I heard another pastor talking and I think he said this was a Woody Allen quote. I don't know, I don't follow Woody Allen at all, but I think it's a good quote. Something to the effect that people are themselves, only more so. And I think that is true when people get on social media. I think they're themselves, only more so. I think there's a sense in which, in the privacy of your own home or whatever, you just kind of feel comfortable. Which is good, but you can also kind of let some boundaries or barriers down. They could lead in some negative directions and, you know, without getting into the article that Russ shared with us, you know, it was one of those kinda difficult situations. It wasn't that a sin had specifically been committed, and yet it had drifted to a place where it just wasn't a good situation. And so, I think you guys both had some great scriptures there. Another one that came to my mind is Ephesians 5:3, "But among you, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or of any kind of impurity or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." So, you know, and I think there's so many ways that people can get into trouble on the internet. I mean, one is viewing inappropriate things. And so, you know, the words of Job kind of come to my mind, you know? "I set a guard over my eyes lest I should look at a woman lustfully." And so, you know, clear back in the Old Testament, Job was already uttering the wisdom of Jesus. You know, basically, watch your eyes. And of course, the internet is a very visual place, so that's one safeguard to have in mind. Another, I think, important safeguard is, putting a guard over our mouths. You know, James talks about the tongue. And not only in this situation, there was some kind of texting going on that would not quit, and wasn't going in a good direction. But Christians do not always reflect Jesus well on Facebook and other places on the internet. I mean, who was it? A guy I used to listen to on the radio, he'd talk about angry evangelicals. And you know, that is not a phrase that should exist. Evangelical means good news. We are proclaimers of the news of Christ. So how is it that we have become, in the world, really viewed over and over again for what we're against instead of the Jesus we're for? So anyway, I just jotted down three things that I think are helpful. Number one: would I want everyone to see this? Would I feel comfortable with everybody seeing either what I'm seeing or what I'm writing or what I'm seeing, you know? Is this open to the world? Because guess what, and this is the trick, and this is where I think social media and the internet can operate, not only is a good thing where it can be ministry, but it also can be one of Satan's lies. And that is that old lie, "Well, nobody will know. Nobody will see." No, good grief, everything you put on the internet's there forever. And first of all, if you wouldn't want everybody to be aware of it, you shouldn't be doing it anyway. That there you've crossed that line of sin. But also you've believed a lie, because at some point, everything you've put out there is likely to be open to the world. And so, you know, would I want everybody to see this? Both as a safeguard to say, "Well, you know, no. Then I probably shouldn't be putting it up there." And guess what, at some point they probably will. Also, I think it's a good question to ask ourselves, "How much time am I spending here?" You know, some of these things are really neither good nor bad, but they can sort of become all consuming. And I don't know, maybe we're getting used to it now, and we're starting to level out. But I remember when I was, you're talking about your first friend on Facebook, I remember when I was trying to learn how to use Facebook. And it just felt like it was like, taking up, you know, I would get home from my day and I would, "What are you doing? He's on Facebook." I was just trying to learn the stupid thing, you know? And early on, I was like, "I need to back away from this." And I kind of barely go on there at all anymore. I'm trying to wish people happy birthday, that's about it. But for a lot of people, it can just kind of become all. And so, maybe no sin is happening, but if it's dominating your life, if it's taking you away from the face to face in touch relationships with people right in front of you, that's not healthy. And I think this is the big one over all of it, "Am I bringing glory to Jesus? Does this glorify Jesus Christ? Am I lifting up the name of Jesus? Or am I getting caught up in all these arguments about culture or politics or whatever it is?" And you might have some really great views and some good points, but honest at the end of the day, if you haven't directed people toward Jesus, what good is it gonna be a thousand years from now? You know, I mean, when we direct people to Jesus, that could be good a thousand years from now, cause they could be a thousand years in eternity with Him versus without Him. I mean, you could be right in everything you're saying and doing, but if you're not pointing people to Jesus, what is it all about in the end? And I guess the counter question is, "Are we distracting from Jesus? Are we becoming known for something else? Are we, as evangelicals, known for anything but the gospel?" Which is what our name is, you know? Evangelical comes from the Greek εὐαγγέλιον; good news gospel. If we're about, I'm not saying that other things aren't important that we shouldn't be working toward a lot of things, but the good news of Jesus Christ needs to be front and center and not detracted from us at all.

What's in the Cross Reference Library? A Little Bit of Modern Christian Romance!

A Sparkle of Silver - Millie Sullivan plays a 1920’s-era guest during tours of a palatial estate on the shore of St. Simons Island, Georgia, where her great-grandmother was a real guest ninety years ago. When Millie learns of a lost diary that may contain the location of a hidden treasure on the estate and reveal the identity of her great-grandfather, she sets out to find the truth of her heritage—and the fortune she desperately needs. But it won’t be easy. When security guard Ben Thornton discovers her snooping in the estate’s private library, he threatens to have her fired. Still, her story seems too ludicrous to be fiction, and her offer to split the treasure is too tempting to pass up. Get ready for a romantic escapade through dark halls and dusty corners that will have you holding your breath and sighing with delight. 

A Glitter of Gold - Anne Norris moved to Savannah, Georgia, for a fresh start. Now her pirate-tour business is flagging and paying the rent requires more than wishful thinking. When she discovers evidence of a shipwreck off the coast of Tybee Island, she knows it could be just the boon she needs to stay afloat. She takes her findings to local museum director Carter Hale for confirmation, but things do not go as planned. Carter is fascinated with the wreck, the discovery of which could open the door to his dream job at a prestigious museum. But convincing Anne to help him fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle is no easy task. And working with Carter means that Anne will have to do the one thing she swore she’d never do again: trust a man. 

A Dazzle of Diamonds - Penelope Hunter loves her job as the event manager at one of Savannah’s premier historic venues—until her ex-fiancé walks into her office with his new bride-to-be. Surely she cannot be expected to plan their wedding. To make matters worse, a scheming social matriarch is threatening to take her big-ticket event elsewhere, especially if Penelope insists on being seen with her best friend, Tucker Westbrook. Since returning from serving two tours in the Middle East, Tucker has built a thriving security company. His work is nearly as stabilizing as his lifelong friendship with Penelope. But when the lone candidate for county sheriff goads him, Tucker loses his cool and ends up on the ballot—and on the receiving end of a smear campaign claiming the Westbrooks were traitors to the South. To clear his name, Tucker and Penelope must join forces to find the truth behind a lost Civil War treasure. But the more time they spend together, the closer she comes to losing her job—and falling helplessly in love. 

Sometimes, Christian Romance novels seem like a Hallmark movie. It is the continuous pattern of: they meet, they begin to fall for one another, there’s a harmless misunderstanding, and by the end everyone has their dream job and gets on their way to living happily ever after. But what fascinated me about Liz Johnson’s Georgia Coast Romance series, was how she introduced us to each of the characters in a way that shows us who they are individually. They aren’t strictly “romance” novels. They’re stories, filled with people who have money problems, family issues, job stress, and so many different things that they have experienced. Aside from the romantic relationships that authors focus on more than an actual story. So today, I’m going to talk about how Liz Johnson incorporated the theme of treasure into her unique romance series. 

The general definition of treasure is: a quantity of precious metals, gems, or other valuable objects; keep carefully (a valuable or valued item). And the latter definition pertains to these novels a bit more than the first definition. But if a treasure is something that you, “keep carefully,” then how do we, like the characters in these novels, end up on a search for lost treasure. How do you lose something that you were supposed to keep safe? Now, if you’re thinking of a treasure as an object, then losing it might make a little more sense (unless you’re actually keeping it under lock and key). In A Sparkle of Silver, we discover that Millie’s lost treasure isn’t the diary at all, but the secrets that it contains. And similarly, in A Glitter of Gold and A Dazzle of Diamonds, finding the remains of a shipwreck and a lost treasure from the Civil War is basically life-altering for the characters of these novels. 

So faith-wise, do you find yourself losing track of the treasures that the Lord has given you? He has given us His word, why don’t we take time to read it? He has given us a way to speak to Him through prayer, why don’t we give Him that time? God has given us so much. Now, it’s our turn to use the gifts He has given us to spread His word and to do His will! Come on in to the Cross Reference Library and check out the Georgia Coast Romance series and even more literary treasures that you may find on our shelves. 

— “But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”  Matthew 6:20-21

What's New at Cross Reference Library? What it Means to Heal

The Miracles Answer Book - How is a miracle different from a coincidence? Can I experience a miracle? Where are miracles most likely to occur? If you wonder about divine phenomena—whether they’re real and where they come from—Christian apologist Lee Strobel has answers to satisfy your heart and your mind. A former atheist turned Christian, Lee launched a two-year investigation of whether God is still performing miracles today. After witnessing multiple events in which God unmistakably intervened in people’s lives in dramatic and well-documented ways, he was a skeptic no more! Using the popular question-and-answer format, Lee will lead you on a voyage of discovery and discernment. You’ll emerge with a deeper faith and a sense of the profound lengths God will go in order to reveal His power and love to humankind. 

Healing What’s Hidden - Over the last decade, Evan and Jenny Owens have helped thousands of people overcome the trials, tragedies, and traumas of their past. In this book, they show you how you can overcome yours too. You’ll learn:

• Four wounds of trauma that distort your view of God, others, and yourself

• Simple yet powerful keys to healing that most people miss 

• A transformational equation that converts pain into purpose

• How to restore what seems broken beyond repair

• How to move forward when you’re stuck in the past

With empathy and insight, they offer a practical, step-by-step process to help you acknowledge your trauma, heal your invisible wounds, and reclaim your future so you can live beyond the anxiety, depression, and shame trauma leaves behind. Others are already experiencing healing. Now it’s your turn.

Reason & Riots - In the midst of teaching school, preparing for her wedding, and dealing with the violent reaction to the railroad accident, Jolie finds herself facing trouble from all sides. Her family’s homestead and the first house they’ve ever owned are threatened. The love lives of two of the younger members of the family arouse high emotions and crazy schemes. The greatest challenge the family has ever faced comes when one of their own is seriously injured. For the first time, Jolie struggles with not being able to take care of everything and everyone. Some would be depressed and crushed, but for Jolie it is a test of endurance and faith. And for the first time in her life, she doesn’t know how things will end. 

Theodicy: The Darkness Rises (Book #6 in the Future Perfect Series) - The Watchers have entered the world, and the Earth will never be the same. These mighty beings have their sights set on world domination. Can they be stopped? What of their children born to Daughters of Men? Who will stand against these Nephilim? The Head of Days has not left the world defenseless, but defeating the enemy will not be an easy fight. And what of Logan? Where do his loyalties now lie when one of the most famous men of history is born?

What Are Some Of The Indications That Something Is God's Will? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Mike Clement and David Clement.

Mike Clement
All right, so this is a family thing we've got going here tonight. And tonight in church, we actually touched on the whole idea of God's will. When I was a teenager, that was a big thing. We were all wondering what God's will was for our life. And we talked a little bit about it from the word, but I'd like to ask you guys. And I'm gonna start with you, Ariel. What were some of the indications to you, that something was God's will for you or was it God's will for you?

Ariel Clement
First of all, when I went away to college (at that time a lot of people sent their kids to a Christian college to find a mate), and I was not interested in finding a fellow because I had seven brothers and I had all kinds of male companionship; sometimes more than I wanted. And so I was not interested in finding a man to fulfill me at that particular point in time. But my parents had prayed for us as kids that we would marry godly, either men or women, depending on whether what was appropriate there. And I personally hadn't thought a lot about it, but I did because my parents had been so fervent in that. I had prayed also that God would provide for me a special person, but I was not looking for a person. And God did provide in my husband while we were in college. God provided a godly man for me to help me in life and to complete me. The areas that I am weak in, God has him very strong in. And so, I think that if we are willing to follow God and that is our desire, that God will bring people and situations into our life. So that we know that we are doing what He wants us to do.

Mike Clement
Okay. Very good. Did you have a checklist? I mean like in even an unofficial checklist?

David Clement
Bald. Overweight?

Mike Clement
Wow. It was pretty---sorry listeners, you can't see what I look like.

Ariel Clement
My main concern was that he would love the Lord and that he would desire to serve God in whatever God wanted for him. And that he would be someone who was a hard worker and would do what he needed to do so that God would be able to use him.

Mike Clement
You know, I don't think that's a bad thing. I've heard of people that had a big checklist for, "Oh, the person I have to marry needs to be this, that, and the other thing." And if somebody has a checklist like that, there's two things that they ought to do. One is they ought to see if the things that they're expecting are biblical. That really ought to be the main thing on your checklist, you know? Am I wanting what God wants? And another thing would be, do you measure up in those areas? It's one thing to want somebody who is this, that, or the other thing, but are you there? I remember hearing on a message that Howard Hendricks preached on. He's talking to some fella, and he had this great big, long list and he asked the guy, "How many of those things on your list are true in your life?" And he is like, "Well, I had to start scratching some things off." Anyway, so Dave, what about you? How have you discovered God's will for your life?

David Clement
Well again, that's something that people oftentimes ask and desire to know. I think the biggest thing about knowing God's will for our life is: first of all, we need to know God. And we need to have a desire to know Him more. And then we need to ask God to reveal these things to us. I don't think it's as hard as some people like to make it feel. I know when I was younger, I used to think, "Oh, this is just this magical thing that's out there and you’ve got to search for it. And you'll never know if you really have it or not." It's just this magical thing. But what I found in my life at least, was that it wasn't that difficult, as I was going through life doing what was there; God revealed Himself to me. And I think that that's the key, I think part of that is realizing what God has gifted you in. You know, God's gifted, and that's something that I'm walking through with my daughter right now. And she's just graduated high school and just, "Look, your taking some of the things that God has gifted you and some of the things that you get pleasure from and being simple about it." You know, again God doesn't want to punish us by forcing us to do His will, you know? And God's will isn't something that we're just gonna hate. That's not necessarily what's there. Oftentimes God, like you mentioned tonight, He gave us these talents and abilities from before we were born. Knowing what He had planned for us in the future. And so, now there's always room for growth, you know? Just because God's challenged you in this one way, it doesn't mean you don't have anything that you have to work on for the rest of your life, to accomplish His will. That's not true. We do have to strive for other aspects of it, but a lot of times, God, at least I've found in my life is, that God will just delight me in the things that He is bringing me to. And I just follow Him. And the scripture says, "Take delight in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart." And, you know, when we are doing what He asked us to do, and when we are following Him, then He reveals His will to us.

Mike Clement
Yeah. The passage says, "To make God known in your ways, and in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will give you the desires of your heart." And there's a whole explanation of that. The passage that I used tonight in church was Ephesians 2:10, and most of us know Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace, you have saved through faith---and that not of yourselves, that is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast," which is a reminder to us that you cannot earn your salvation. You could never be good enough, you could never change enough. You can't undo anything that you've already done. It's not possible to earn God's forgiveness, but it goes on to say, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." And so it goes on to say, "On the one hand, you're not saved by works, but you're saved under good works." There are things that God intended for your life, and in fact, He created you in such a way that you could do what He wants you to do. One way to discern God's will for your life is, "Is this something I can do?" Now, it may be something that you don't like to do. It may be something that you need to learn how to do better. But if something is not possible for you to do, you don't have to worry about that. The Christian life, I should add, is not possible to live in the power of the flesh. It is not possible to live the way God wants us to live just by our own means and our own ability. But He's given the believer the Holy Spirit dwelling within, to empower us. So we can live the Christian life the way God wants us to live. "But even before," this verse says, "Even before you were born, you were His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Which He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." God had a plan for your life. And so, the verse tells us that God does have a plan for our life. And the verse goes on to tell us that whatever that plan is, that we're already equipped. We have the tools that are necessary to be able to learn to do that. There's some things that I enjoy that I'm not very good at. You know, I'd like to play basketball, some kinds of basketball with the teens at camp and different things. I am never gonna be a basketball player. If I devoted my whole life to being a basketball player, I would've been a miserable failure, and been miserable at it. There's actually a Christian book that was written a number of years ago. And the fellow, in His book, said that God's will is fluid. It's not specific. God's will for you isn't necessarily one thing or another, there are a number of options you can choose out of all those options and be perfectly in God's will. And what was interesting, was he started using Bible characters and he said "Like Isaiah. He didn't have to be a prophet. He could have done something else." Well, I think the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I think Isaiah had to be a prophet. Apostle Paul said, "Woe is me if I preach not the gospel." And now, there may be some flexibility within God's will, but I don't think it's a toss up. I believe that He has a perfect will. Now I do believe that in order for us to understand His will for our life, we need to want to do it.

David Clement
Well, I think that's something that's very key, you know? And, you know, people often think of God's will, as far as it comes to a mate people. And that's one thing that I thought was just cool here recently, just talking to one of the people in our church. Obviously, and mom talked about it just a little bit ago with the idea of sending your kids off to school to find a mate. And, you know, find a Christian just to find a Christian mate. And these folks in our church, they prayed about where to send their kids, because they knew that that was a possibility. The interesting thing is, all three of their kids went to school and none of them found their godly mate at school. They all found them. They found godly mates, but not at school. You know, but it was just a reminder to me of being where God wants you to be when God wants you to be there. One of them, one of the young ladies was up at camp. She was just at a camp retreat, and there was a young man there all the way from the state of California that she would've never met probably any other way. However, she was where God wanted her to be. And he was where God wanted him to be. And he wasn't there to have fun, he was there to work. He was there working with his family. And here, God had brought both of them, following the Lord, and God had brought both of them together. But the same is true in every aspect, not just that one, you know? I know that I was a pastor for a while, an interim pastor in a church here in town for a while. And I never really thought myself as being a pastor before. You know, again, I didn't really see myself gifted in that area. Didn't really see myself along those lines of preaching. But the more that God, I considered myself a servant. God really, when I do things for people, I find the most pleasure in helping people. And it's just for bringing me the most pleasure in my life, is when I'm able to help people. And so, you know, whether it's at work and doing a service for people at work. I own my own business now, and I get pleasure in that. But God worked on my heart when it came to taking this position as the interim pastor. And as I thought, "No, no, no, I'm not a preacher. I'm not a speaker. I'm not any of these other things." God said, "No, but these people need to see somebody." And I realized that I could serve people and still get great pleasure and joy out of it. Even though it was serving in a way that I wasn't comfortable doing. And so, my spiritual gift, if you wanna call it that, still was in play there. It wasn't that I was an evangelist. It wasn't that I was a great speaker or anything else. But God touched my heart through the spiritual gift that these people need somebody. And it was a way that I was able to serve the Lord by realizing, "Yeah, the Lord had gifted me." Not necessarily in that. And that's a whole other story about a pastor's responsibilities and his jobs. But in all reality, speaking from the pulpit is one of his least responsibilities.

What's New at Cross Reference Library?

Joni & Ken: An Untold Love Story - Tragic circumstances often stretch relationships to their breaking point. But God’s grace is always more than enough. For Ken and Joni Eareckson Tada, enduring quadriplegia, chronic pain, cancer, and depression only made their love more vibrant through thirty years of marriage. Discover a bond that has seen the worst and claimed the best. With sixteen pages of photos, peek into Joni and Ken’s challenges firsthand. Discover God’s immeasurable grace along the way as their story inspires and enriches your own relationships. 

Journey: A Study of Peter for Stumbling Toward Jesus’s Extravagant Grace - Peter was an ordinary, hardworking, often overlooked fisherman. But that didn't stop God from calling him on an extraordinary journey to become a lasting and inspiring example for Christians worldwide. In this eight-week inductive Bible study, Jodie Niznik follows Peter’s complicated, often rocky journey of following Jesu. She delves into the ways Peter’s missteps and failures reveal God’s grace, and shows where we can draw parallels to our own lives and struggles. Moreover, she helps you establish specific mindfulness practices for approaching each week’s study with a quiet mind and a ready heart. Though Peter lived two thousand years ago, his life is still proof that God can use your life for His glory—despite all the ways you may feel yourself failing, coming up short, or falling away.

Does God Knowing The Future Negate Our Free Will? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Gary Schick and Johnathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick

All right. Well, our question for today is, "Does God knowing the future, negate our free will? Do we have a free will? What is the extent of that will?" Well, I can freely say I have no choice, but...actually, Jonathan, would you get us started on, kind of a tough question? Where do free will and predestination meet? Or do they?

Jonathan Hernandez

Yeah, definitely. So this question definitely could be a four or five episode type of question. You know, we could really dive into a lot of theology, I guess, and debates and different things with this. You know, free will, predestination, those type of different things; we could hop into a lot of those. But, you know, I think for me, I think of this question and sometimes I think we want every answer to every single thing. We wanna know God completely, and I think that's a great thing for us to go after, cause we should go after knowing God as much as we can. You know, but I think of things like, "how can God be three in one?" You know, that's a question that I think we can go after forever and not fully, you know; our finite minds can't fully comprehend some of these things and stuff. And so, you know, I think of some of those questions. But you know, I think of 1 Corinthians 10:23, and it says, "you say 'I'm allowed to do anything,' but not everything is good for you. You say 'I'm allowed to do anything,' but not everything is beneficial." You know, we have free will to pick these different things, but how much of it is beneficial for us to actually do? You know, I can freely decide to, you know, do something that's harmful, but is it actually beneficial in the end? You know, when we see this verse it's making it, you know, why it's true that we have the right to do anything we want. The truth is, everything we do is not beneficial for us too. And then, how beneficial is it for us, or for the people that are around us too? You know, I think of that question. Even as in 1 Corinthians 10:23, if we jump to the next verse in 24, it says, "Don't be concerned for your own good, but also the good of others." You know, so I, when we think about free will we have to also think about, "if I have free will to do anything or everything, is it beneficial? Not only to me, but for, you know, the people that are around me. And if it's not beneficial for us, then should we be doing it?" You know? So I look at some of those things. Like I said, we could go for a long time on a lot of these questions. So I think we look at free will and then divine sovereignty. You know, is it human's responsibility and then is it God's responsibility? You know, where is the line, you know, in that. And so I had just a couple verses that we could look at. John 1:12, it says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God and to those who believe in His name." So we would look at that and we would say, "Is that human responsibility, or is that divine sovereignty?" And based off of what we just read, we'd probably say that's human responsibility. But if we go to the next verse in 13, it says, "Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." We'd look at that, and we'd say that leans more on divine sovereignty. So, you have these two back-to-back verses and one's human responsibility and one's divine sovereignty. And we could actually go to Matthew and we have the same thing in 11:25. And it says, "At that time, Jesus answered and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and the prudent and have revealed them to the babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor the father, anyone knows, except the son. And the one to whom the son wills to reveal Him." We would look at that and we'd say that's divine sovereignty. And then if we jump to the next one, it says, "Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." And we'd say that one's human's responsibility. So, we could go back and forth on this, you know, debate, and I guess, depending on what church you're raised in, you'd have the two different Calvinist thought processes or the median thought processes. And so, that's kind of where I'm sitting. That I'm kind of in the middle on that.

Ben Cline

So you're saying that you're a Calvinist Armenian?

Jonathan Hernandez

Yeah. Somewhere in the middle.

Ben Cline

So, like you said, this is one of those hot questions. And it's a hot question because we don't understand it, and so we debate it a lot. And, you know, thinking of how the question itself was worded. You know, he talks about, or the listener talks about God knowing the future. And I think another way of thinking of God knowing the future; another way to say that is that He's sovereign. That He's sovereign over all things. And what that means is that He has control and He has full understanding over all things. And those are two things that we don't have.

Gary Schick

We are always trying to get them though, aren't we?

Ben Cline

Right. Yeah, we don't have full control, we don't have full understanding over all those things. But in that sovereignty, it's so interesting because, you know, in that sovereignty that God has, He has given us the free will to make choices. And, you know, how does that work exactly? Well, we don't know. It's impossible, I think, for us to fully understand, you know, how those two things intertwine together. But there, I think, are a couple of things from scripture that we do know for sure. One of those things is that God knows all things. I was reading through Psalm 139 and in the first four verses it says, "Oh Lord, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, and are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold oh Lord, You know it all." And that Psalm just goes on and talks more and more about the knowledge that God has. He knows everything about us. He knows our future, He knows our past. And, the other thing that we know for sure is that God has given us the ability or the free will to make choices. And we see that even back all the way to the first human beings on earth, right? That God gave them the ability to make choices. And what did they choose? Well, they chose something like you were saying Jonathan, "that was not beneficial." And yeah, it messed a lot of things up. And, you know, I can't blame that on them, because I can't say that, you know, I wouldn't have made the same choice. But, you know, God did give us those choices. But another thing that we know for sure is that we must choose God or be eternally separated from Him. And Romans 3 makes that very clear, like you were talking about with the responsibility that we are accountable for our choices. It says in Romans 3:19 that we are accountable to God. But you know, even though we find difficulty in trying to understand this, I think that there's a couple of warnings in this first of all. You know, one is that there are a couple of extremes that people take. One is: the extreme of emphasizing God's sovereignty so much that it eliminates our free will, at least in our minds. And that's kind of like the scenario where we're just all these pre-programmed robots that God has created that are walking around on the earth, and we really don't have any free choice. But, you know, the other extreme is: emphasizing the free will of man so much that in our minds, it means that God doesn't still have full control. And, you know, both of those things are not, you know, a biblical way of thinking of things. I came across this quote as I was reading about this. It says, "The truth is that God does not violate our will by choosing and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts so that we will choose Him." And then they talked about 1 John 4:19 that says, "We love Him because He first loved us." And then, John 15:16, where he says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you." And so we have these dynamics that just make things, you know, so interesting for us to think through. But there is a point of encouragement here too. That the sovereignty of God is not meant to be something that we're, you know, to be really concerned or anxious over. It's supposed to be something that gives us comfort. And, you know, so I guess my encouragement is: even though we don't, and never will completely understand that, you know, to have comfort in that fact that God is sovereign over our lives, but that he's also given us the free will to make choices.

Gary Schick

Right. Well, you know, and it's a hard question. A lot of people struggle with it. I think the reason is, as you guys have both pointed out, and I love this, cause you come from really different backgrounds, but I think we're in agreement here. Both sides of this question are actually true. God is fully sovereign, knows the future, determines every outcome. On the other hand, we are absolutely free and act entirely as free agents. And so someone said, "Well, you can't have it both ways, there's a contradiction." Well, but there's also something in this world called a paradox. And it's a place where two outwardly opposed truths come together as one. And we see throughout scripture, as you have pointed out, and I think Jonathan, you did a great job of taking us to several scriptures where we have both truths. Man is freely choosing; God is sovereignly determining. And so it's not an either or, they're both occurring. And so we see this throughout scripture, that those predestined for good, whose actions, and those who are predestined in some ways for evil; both according to their own desire, and yet nevertheless fulfilling God's will. And so like, for example, you know, we would look at the Old Testament. We read about these pagan princes, like Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus and others, and they are freely acting on their own. They don't even know the Lord, and yet they are fulfilling to the letter, His good plan. We see it in the New Testament. We see it in Judas. Judas is fulfilling scriptures that we read about in Psalms, and yet he is completely acting on his own, and receiving the penalty for it. And preeminently, of course, we see it in Jesus Himself, who fulfills God's will in all things. And personally, I respectfully disagree with those who say, and I didn't hear it from either of you guys today, "That God, you know, He knows what we are gonna choose in the future. And then He just sort of shapes the future around our choices." I think rather, He doesn't weigh it on us, but He takes the lead in all things. We are not predestined according to our choices, but according to His will. Nevertheless, we act as free agents, and I think your scriptures pointed that out. I also think of, you know, that story between the sun and the wind. And they both said, "Well, let's see who can get that guy to take off his coat." And so I think a lot of times we think about God's predestining work as if it's somehow forced. It's a little bit like the wind. "And so he just blows harder and harder and he gets colder and colder, and the guy just wraps his coat around him tighter and tighter. And then the sun says, 'my turn' and he just warms the guy up and the guy just, 'oh, it's a warm day,' and he just takes off his coat." And so you see, there he's freely acting, but also in response to what something greater is doing. And so, we do act according to our natures, and I guess left to just that, nothing good is gonna come. So I'm glad that God is sovereign, and I'm glad that He intercedes. And actually, I think if anything, He's curbing the outcomes of what I would set in motion. And I really also love, not only what Jonathan shared, but Ben, what you were saying about the comfort aspect of this. While these truths, kind of like this was pointed out in the Trinity, it's a little beyond us. We can kind of glimpse it, you know, we can see it in different things. Nevertheless, it is given to us as a comfort. And so I just want to close with a few words here from Ephesians that put the predestining work of God in terms of a comfort to us. "In Him, we have obtained an inheritance. Having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the council of His will. So that we who were first to hope in Christ, might be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." And it's a passage that's talking about our salvation, it's a passage about the fact that we freely embrace the salvation in Christ. And yet, that God in His sovereignty is sealing us and destining us to greater things than we could ever hope for. And so, you know, I think what it really comes down to as a comfort is, is that in Christ we don't do what we would just do naturally on our own. We don't slip. We place our hand in a hand that is much firmer than ours. And the grip is tight, for our benefit. You know, when I'm holding my kids, as I'm walking on the hike and there's kind of a steep drop, they're not saying, "Oh dad, you know, leave me alone so that I can fall off this cliff." They're saying, "You know, thank you. That you hold me fast and I can enjoy the view from the comfort of being kept safe in your arms." And I think that is the healthier way to look at what is frankly, a mystery.

What's New at Cross Reference Library? Timeless Hymns for Family Worship

Joni Eareckson Tada and Bobbie Wolgemuth wrote this book together. “Two girls with boys’ names,” they were the best of friends. Then Bobbie stepped into heaven. Now Joni invites you to rediscover some of our faith’s most beloved hymns, embrace their rich spiritual truths, and discover their fascinating historical background. Find comfort and strength in classics like “Holy, Holy, Holy!,” “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God,” and “How Great Thou Art.” Experience God’s love, hope, and peace as you worship together as a family.

When I saw that this book was donated for our library, I was really interested in what Joni and her dear friend Bobbie, had discovered. Along with being fascinated by history and what stories can be told through it, I also really love hymns! Before finding the church I’m in now, I grew up in a little country church with a congregation of 10 people. And during our worship time, everyone would pick up a hymnal and find song requests for my grandma—also the church pianist—to play as we sang along. I simply loved that part of the church service! It didn’t matter how good or bad anyone sang; the strength of the piano and of the lyrics in those beautiful hymns seemed to turn 10 people into 50. As I read through this book, I was excited to see Joni add some pretty interesting input to some of my favorite hymns. A good example is her commentary on, “How Great Thou Art:”

“You already know what it feels like to marvel at something like the mighty ocean or a massive thunderstorm or a sky filled with unbelievably bright stars. When you choose to follow Jesus, prepare to be blown away by His love and grace and power. The more time you spend in His presence, the more you will learn about Him and the more you will become like Him. You’ll experience His greatness and awesomeness, and you’ll live a life of excitement and adventure.”

In reading this book, you will find great thoughts about some of the best hymns ever written. And maybe the next time you are taking part in the worship service in your church, think about what the lyrics mean to you and your relationship with the Lord. So come on down to the Cross Reference Library and check out this beautiful book.