What is Accidentalism? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole
So our question is one again that I had to do a little bit of research on. It was a new topic I hadn't heard of, and so here it is. "I recently heard a new term I've never heard before. Can you tell me what accidentalism means?" And so I, to some degree figured it's probably self-explanatory, but I'd never really heard it this way as a philosophy or a point people are trying to use. So, Gary, what have you found on this?

Gary Schick
Well, you know, I went to that great source of knowledge, Wikipedia. And essentially, "In philosophy, accidentalism denies the causal closure of physical determinism and maintains that events can succeed one another haphazardly or by chance (not in the mathematical, but in the popular sense). Opponents of accidentalism maintained that what seems to be a chance occurrence is actually the result of one or more causes that remain unknown due only to a lack of investigation. Charles Sanders Pierce used the term tychism (from the Greek word τύχη, meaning chance) for theories that make chance an objective factor in the process of the universe." Kind of brought my mind back to the first Jurassic Park movie where that one scientist in the helicopter was talking about chaos theory, you know, like you can't predict it. And so, you know, is there some truth to this? Sure and it's opposite is a determinism and there's a variety of forms of causal determinism. And so the theory of causal determinism, is basically the idea that everything is part of a chain of events, one leading to causing another, like the domino effect. And if you're a fan, I'm a fan of the old, Sherlock Holmes stories, you know, that's basically causal determinism. You know, Holmes would look at Watson and tell him, you know, "See your brother had a bad day today." "What, how do you know?" "Well, because you know, you've got a hair move to your left on your forehead and that's caused by the wind. And wind was blowing that way in your face because you were turned that way. And you were turned that way because you were concerned." At the end, it's like, "Oh, sure, I see how it all fits together," but you're always mystified by Sherlock Holmes. How he could see to the bottom of everything. And so this is kind of the opposite theory. This is, nope things just happen. And so where do we as Christians line up on this, is this even a topic for us today? Ask the pastor? Well, maybe in the sense that Ephesians 1:11 says, speaking of Jesus, "In Him, Jesus, we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined, according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will." And so what we would call biblical, philosophers would call theological determinism. The determinism that counts God as the primary factor. And that's where I'd line up, you know, and even within Christianity. We have debates about, where does freewill end and God's predestining will begin. I don't know. I just know that he has given us a choice and a call to believe and when we get to the other side, we will say, "And that was his plan all along." All I know is that God is sovereign. God is good, I trust Him, and He's all powerful. I don't have to worry about the random forces of the universe and what might, whoops, happen to me today, because I've got a God above me. And in whom He's literally, scripture, as the old African spiritual goes, "He's got the whole world in his hands," and He does, He's got me and He's got you. And whatever you're facing today my friends, He's got this, whatever accident may be fall, that appears to be so outwardly, who can ever know the factors that go into things. God rules and overrules again and again. We trust his plan.

Ben Poole
You know, this is an interesting topic because, it kind of goes against almost every faith belief. I mean, every, every belief system has this cause and effect.

Gary Schick
Even the belief in just, science.

Ben Poole
Absolutely. And so I think it's something we need to be careful of to not fall into any traps that Satan may use to sway people away from the truth. Because as someone may claim to have no faith, they can look at the world and say, "You know, the big bang just happened. These things just happen, there's no reasoning behind it. There's no reasoning behind how life came about, it just happened. Everything just happened to fall into the right place at the right time for the right amount of time. And it just happened." And to me, and what I know about the truth of God's word and the truth that I believe is not taught enough. I don't think this is impossible, that things just happen. I do believe a hundred percent in free will, that we have a choice in how we're going to live and what we're going to do, but I don't think even that was by accident. I think that there has been a plan, and I think if you look at the scriptures from beginning of Genesis 1 to the end of Revelation. You see this beautiful plan that has been laid out. How God used, well take Rehab for instance, a prostitute who was not an Israelite became part of the lineage of Christ. Ruth as well, who was not an Israelite. The three women talked about in Jesus's lineage is Rahab, Ruth, and Mary, and these are people that should not have been involved.

Gary Schick
Well, and don't forget Bathsheba.

Ben Poole
And Bathsheba yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, there's just so much of this cause and effect, and I don't think cause and effect just happens. I think there has got to be a plan in place, and I think it's simply just read the scriptures and see how God works through different scenarios. And now in those scenarios, He lets choices be made. He lets David and Bathsheba, God allowed that to happen.

Gary Schick
Yep, He doesn't will sin, but he knew is was coming, and he knew what he was going to do in response. You know, actually I'm glad you said these things Ben, because you mentioned Ruth. It takes me back to my seminary days, when I was learning Hebrew. And one Hebrew word, this kind of sums up accidentalism, it's the word "וזה קרה." It means, "And it happened." And so at the beginning of Ruth, we read "וזה קרה" and it happened that there was a famine in the land. And so Naomi, her husband and their two sons Mahlon and Kilion, they head off to, they just sort of happened to go off to Moab. And these boys happened to marry these gals, and they happened to die there. And then, but you know what, Ruth is an integral part of God's plan for Jesus. And so it's kind of, from our perspective, there's a lot of accidentalism, there's a lot of "וזה קרה," there's a lot of, "And it happened." And then there's what we also read in scripture, "But God." You know, and we see the divine hand of providence and, that was a key word. I'm seeing you wearing kind of a patriotic shirt today and tomorrow as we're sitting here, it's veteran's day, but it'll be yesterday when you all are listening to it out there on the radio. You know, providence was a word, even the unbelievers among our founding fathers who didn't know Jesus, they believed in the hand of providence. They believed in a providential power which we know as the Lord God, who for good orders things and has created an orderly world. I think you're right, I think the danger of this is sort of this idea. It's really a pagan idea of chaos. Kind of like the Greeks who believed, in the beginning was the god Chaos. And from Chaos comes all this, you know, that was scientific guys by Darwin, big bang, you know? "Oh, I didn't know that. Rule that scientific theory had religious rule." Yeah, It's actually old Greek paganism in a new form, the idea that it happened and there is no explanation, it just happened. But behind all things we believe in a God who was before all things and who in all and through all is working out his perfect plan, and I trust it.

Ben Poole
And that's really, the hope is, when I read up on this, I think, man, what is there? What's the point in waking up tomorrow? If accidentalism is truth, what's the point in any of this? And I think the encouragement for us, especially as Christians and that encouragement should take us out into the world to share the gospel, is there is a purpose. There is a plan that God has for each of us. And as a whole, as a big seed church, God has established us to be the hands and feet of Jesus here on Earth. This is, you and I are part of God's amazing plan through his grace. And that is such an honor and a privilege to be part of that in whatever way you play. Whether you're a pastor like us, or you're in the workforce or a stay at home mom, or whatever's going on in your life, you have purpose, you have a purpose in Christ. And so never, ever forget that. Which kind of makes me think about going into these holiday seasons. This is a time where a lot of people struggle. A lot of people struggle with depression, the loss of loved ones, especially over the last couple years has just been rough all around the world. Just this last week, I lost a classmate of mine, a young guy who had a wife and five little kids. And what's been amazing through that is, this wife of my friend is a major strong Christian. And through all the events that took place was able to minister to the nurses and the doctors to share her faith. And they got to see God work in that, because even through that hard time, there was a purpose that God was using. And we don't understand it, there's going to be times we don't have a clue what God is doing. But it's not an accident, it's not hidden from God. It's not like he doesn't understand what's happening, He's orchestrating this road before us. And we have the joy in Christ to walk this road as he leads. Yeah, so anyway, this is kind of a bigger topic than I thought it was going to be, a little more powerful. And I think it's just something that we can be encouraged by. And if you hear somebody talking about this, engage them in conversation. And enjoy that and listen to what they have to say. Really listen and see why, why would you believe something like this? And just listen to what they have to say, because I really believe in my experience, people want to talk about what they believe in as long as someone's willing to listen. And if we're willing to listen to people that are more apt to listen to what we have to say as well. So let that be your encouragement today that you are part of, God's amazing grace and this amazing plan that he has for all of us. Well, do you have anything else, Gary?

Gary Schick
Yeah, well, and I'm just thinking, you know, the scripture calls us, it says, "But continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." But it does that within the context of what else scripture says, "He, who began a good work in you will carry it forward to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." So all we're called to do in Christ, we do with confidence in God's sovereign grace and plan.

What's New at the Cross Reference Library? Difficult Conversations

Time for the Talk -  Time for the Talk will help fathers walk their sons through one of the most important conversations of their lives. “The Talk” is much broader than just a talk about sexuality; it’s a conversation about manhood, about right decisions, about Christ. Time for the Talk will assist you in giving your son what he needs to steer through the moral and spiritual confusion of this world and make wise, godly, character-forming decisions. You will be equipping him to enter true manhood--a passage that many young men today never make. This book not only provides a complete framework for discussing the key areas of manhood that every boy should learn from his father; it also guides you into developing a relationship based on truth and love that will endure for life. 

Challenging Conversations - When was the last time you had an honest, heartfelt, yet kind and productive conversation with someone about depression, mental illness, substance abuse, pornography, premarital sex, racism, divorce, abortion, LGBT issues, or politics? Our tendency is either to avoid talking about such volatile topics at all-even with other Christians-or to go on the attack, causing rifts that do nothing to encourage further discussion or growth. If you’re tired of avoiding tough conversations, if you want to be a light in a dark world but you’re not sure how, Challenging Conversations, from Perspectives: A Summit Ministries Series, is the book you’ve been waiting for. With straightforward answers to some of the most challenging moral issues disrupting the church, this book will help you build your confidence with three simple steps to becoming a conversant Christian. Each chapter begins with a true story, clarifies misconceptions and misunderstandings about the subject, and equips you to build rapport, ask the right questions, find points of agreement, and take the next fruitful step in the relationship. Because even if we disagree on a moral issue, that shouldn’t make us mortal enemies.

 On Pills and Needles - When Rick Van Warner found himself searching abandoned buildings for his missing son, he had no idea that the synthetic, pill-form heroin that had snared his teen was already killing so many. In the years of pain and heartache that followed as he tried to save his son from addiction, Van Warner discovered what the public has just recently become aware of: prescription opioids are so addictive that even short-term use can create dependency, igniting an epidemic that now claims nearly 100 American lives each day. On Pills and Needles is one family’s story, but it is also a wake-up call and crash course in opioid addiction. Through his harrowing personal journey, Van Warner exposes the common causes of opioid addiction, effective and ineffective ways it has been treated, and how families can walk alongside loved ones who are dealing with the daily agony of addiction.

What is the Reformation Movement? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole
So this morning, our question is, "Could you talk a little about Martin Luther and the reformation movement? Take us on a little history to her about the reformation movement's beginnings, and how it has influenced the church of today." And so to be honest, I don't really know a lot about the reformation movement. However, I would probably be comfortable saying, if you're a Christian today and active in a church, a lot of that probably has to do with, because of some of these people, especially Martin Luther over 500 years ago, making some steps. And so we are part of that legacy, that living legacy of what happened hundreds of years ago. And so this has, maybe implications for us today as what happened so many years ago and what continues to go on. And so, Gary, I just open it up to you to kind of share some of that history with us and some thoughts on that.

Gary Schick
Well, of course, you know, one thing that we often just talk about and don't even think about is this idea of going back to the Bible. And of course that's where it begins, it begins with Jesus and the apostles 2000 years ago. So what's the big deal about what happened in the 1500s and how does that affect us? Well, over time, over 1500 years, as a matter of fact, the Bible was still there, but it was in, at that point, largely translated, it was translated into Latin. Which the educated knew, but the average people didn't know, they should know their own languages, that was one problem. And then the other thing is, is over the accumulation of time, some other ideas, it sort of accumulated, been largely accepted by Christians, that really weren't in the Bible. And so along comes this little old monk named Martin Luther who really wanted to get it right. He wanted to be saved and he was taught that he needed to confess every sin and he would go to his confessor and confess until his confessors were like, "Please Luther, don't come back until you've really gotten something, okay?" But you know, he had a very sensitive conscience and he knew from scripture that God is a holy God who cannot permit sin into his presence. And here he is trying to work his way into heaven. And finally, one day he's reading a scripture in the book of Romans 1:17, where he reads these words, "The just shall live by faith." And it's like a light goes off in his head. It's like, "That's the point of the cross, that's why Jesus, the sinless son of God came and died to wipe away my sins. The just shall live by faith." And then he goes on and he reads more deeply in Romans and he sees that it's not by works of the law, which we have done, but by faith in what Christ has done. As Paul later writes in Ephesians, "For it is by grace we are saved through faith and not by works that we have done." Yes, there are works that come along as a result of our salvation. You know, there are certain things I do because I'm an American, or because I'm the child of the parents that I come from, that reflect that. But that's not what makes me an American or makes me a member of my family. We are made children of God through faith in Christ, and as a result of that, not to add to what Jesus has done, we do these works. Well anyway, in that particular time, that wasn't the way it was being taught in the churches. And so, at one point Luther, actually October 31st, 1517, he writes up this long list of what are called theses, they're things for debate. And he hammers, them to the door of the Wittenberg chapel. Which is what people did in those days, you know, they didn't post online because there wasn't an online, they posted on the chapel door. And his plan was just to basically recall the church, reform the church back to scripture. And so he took up several of these things that had come in. For example, like the idea of, "Well we're saved by faith and works," well, no, the Bible didn't say that. You know, he reads about, Mary and Jesus's brothers in the Bible and the church is teaching that she never had any other children. But that's not really what the New Testament seems to indicate. He reads in the Bible that we confess our sins to God, and so why is he having to confess to his priest to have everything forgiven? And so on it goes, several things, you know, he has these questions about Mary and the saints, the apocryphal, the confession, but above all salvation. And also, just the idea of, in the Bible we read about heaven and hell, but the church was teaching about this place in between called purgatory. And that you had to either work your way out of it, which could take hundreds of years or buy your way out of it by paying indulgences to the church. And you could usually pay off a few years of purgatory time by paying for these indulgences and somebody, some priests would say a prayer for you and they'd be forgiven. Well at Luther's time, they were building St. Peter's in Rome, and there was a fella on the street selling a special indulgence. And his saying was, "As the coin in my cup does ring the soul of your loved one from purgatory does spring." And just infuriated Luther because it was, this is nowhere in scripture. So anyway, he begins to write and he begins to write what he is seeing in the Bible. And he is brought to trial, in a town called Worms, the trial was called a diet, And so it's called the Diet of Worms. And if that doesn't sound tasty to you, believe me, it wasn't tasty for Luther either. He gets there, basically all of his writings are put in front of him and he's basically given the choice. Did you write this? Yes. Will you recant it or basically die? Well, let me think about it. No. So he comes back the next day. They let him think about it overnight. "This is, you know, I've written about different things here. There are different topics, but all of them do have this in common. I went to the scriptures. If I can be shown from the word of God where I am wrong, I will retract it, I will recant it. But if I cannot be shown by the word of God in clear reason where my error is, here I stand. So help me, God, I can do no other." And there was kind of a moment of silence in the room. "Here I stand on the word," and then they condemned him. Well as he was in a coach, traveling back home, you know, probably going to be arrested at some point, he's kidnapped. He's taken away to the Wartburg castle where he's held or in hiding for like a couple years while he translates the Bible in its entirety, into the language of his beloved German people. And this begins to happen all over Europe. Others like Calvin, Zwingli, and Wycliffe. They're getting the Bible into the language of the people, they're bringing the people back to what the scriptures actually teach. And the Roman church has a Counter-Reformation, the council of Trent where all of these things, none of it had actually been hardened as this is what we believe. Then it actually became the teaching of the Roman church, and so that is the difference. Protestant churches have rejected these extra biblical teachings, the Roman church affirmed all of them. And it was just kind of a very, both sides, no room in the middle type of thing. But you know, here's something I think is really beautiful about the reformation. And there were five watchwords of the reformation, of course the educated language was Latin so they're all in Latin. But I'll tell you what they are, I think they're a good guide for us still today. They are simply this: Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Christus (Christ alone the savior), Sola Gratia (By grace alone He saves us), Sola Fide (Through faith alone), Soli Deo Gloria (To God alone, be the glory). I think that's a pretty good foundation for the Christian life. As we find in scripture, "By grace we are saved through faith in Christ alone all praise and glory to God."

Ben Poole
Yeah, amen to that. These are amazing examples of living by faith. According to scripture, no matter what comes.

Gary Schick
Luther expected to die any day.

Ben Poole
And there are Bible translators who were killed for translating the scriptures in some of the most horrible ways. And they stood facing their earthly demise, knowing they did what was right. Thank God we're not in that situation. We have Bibles everywhere. You can get them at your fingertips on your phone, computers, books. I mean, even hotels, some still have Bibles in every room. I mean, so it's actively available wherever we are, essentially, whenever we want it. Part of, because of what some guys like Luther did, they stood up deciding, "I'm going to go back to the scriptures." And I think that is such an amazing example for the church today, as we look at the world and we see sin is not slowing down. If anything, it's ramping up and here in America, especially it's more and more praised. And Christianity is sort of being shoved to the back burner, and we're seeing this take place. And I think this just stands for us as encouragement as Christians, that no matter what we face personally, or as big C church, as the church stands in the world, it's encouraging to me to know that I'm not doing this alone. That we have got the cloud of witnesses watching the church live in this world. And it's an example set for us that things may be hard, things may be getting worse it feels like. But God's word still stands true that no matter what we face, we can always stand on God's word. And know that even if that affects our physical life here, even our employment or our families, we can stand before God knowing we've done what was right. And we have examples that have gone before us that say, "You can do this." And this is what God desires for his church, is not to just take the word of someone else, but God has given us his word so that we can each read it. That it's not hidden from us, it's not someone trying to take power away from us, but that God has opened up this doorway for us. And he used men like Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Tyndale, and Wycliffe. I mean, all of these people paid a lot of sacrifice so that we can have the word of God. And so I think my encouragement is stand up, stand strong for scripture and don't back down and dig into it because we are so blessed and the message isn't just for us. The message is for us to take to the world, so that we can be the messengers of the greatest message ever told.

Gary Schick
Amen. And you know, one of the principles of the reformation was, reformed and ever forming. In other words, reform back to scripture and always coming back to it. Because we have that within us, that is always wandering. And coming back to our anchor point in God's word is so important.

Ben Poole
It's a direction for our life, it lights the path before us. Well, this was a great topic. So as you know, we celebrate Halloween, but it's also known as reformation day because over 500 years ago when Martin Luther stood up for what he believed was right. And the world has changed ever since because of that. So we're thankful for that.

What's New at the Cross Reference Library? When the Past Brought us to the Present

Run Baby Run -  Nicky Cruz’s heart had turned to stone when he was only three. His mother nicknamed him the “Son of Satan,” and he was severely abused, both physically and mentally. After moving from Puerto Rico to New York, Nicky became the leader of a notorious street gang--the Mau Maus. He turned into a violent street criminal before he was eighteen. David Wilkerson, a skinny preacher from Pennsylvania, reached out to him with relentless love. He said, “Nicky, Jesus loves you,” and this simple message opened the door to a new life for Nicky Cruz. Run Baby Run, now a classic, tells his exciting story with gripping openness. 

Present over Perfect - Written in Shauna’s warm and vulnerable style, this collection of essays focuses on the most important transformation in her life, and maybe yours too: leaving behind busyness and frantic living and rediscovering the person you were made to be. Present Over Perfect is a hand reaching out, pulling you free from the constant pressure to perform faster, push harder, and produce more, all while maintaining an exhausting image of perfection. Stop. Rest. Play. Create. Connect. Cultivate silence. And in that silence, you’ll discover the voice of love you’ve been aching to hear. Shauna offers an honest account of what led her to begin this journey, and a compelling vision for an entirely new way to live: soaked in grace, rest, silence, simplicity, prayer, and connection with the people that matter most to us. 

Hearts Made Whole - After her father’s death, Caroline Taylor has grown confident running the Windmill Point Lighthouse. But in 1865 Michigan, women aren’t supposed to have such roles, so it’s only a matter of time before the lighthouse inspector appoints a new keeper--even though Caroline has nowhere else to go and no other job available to her. Ryan Chambers is a Civil War veteran still haunted by the horrors of battle. He’s secured the position of lighthouse keeper mostly for the isolation--the chance to hide from his past is appealing. He’s not expecting the current keeper to be a feisty and beautiful woman who’s angry with him for taking her job and for his inability to properly run the light. When his failings endanger others, he and Caroline realize he’s in no shape to run the lighthouse, but he’s unwilling to let anyone close enough to help. Caroline feels drawn to this wounded soul, but with both of them relying on that single position, can they look past their loss to a future filled with hope...and possibly love?

What is your story? How did you get from here to there? I was asked to share my testimony for the first time this summer, and I was completely stumped. As I was listening to everyone else share theirs, I thought to myself, “Dang, my testimony is pretty lame. Why wasn’t my life harder?” I look back on that now and realize that I was looking at that all wrong. Our testimonies aren’t just about the hard times in our lives. We tell our testimonies so that we can tell others how God changed our lives. And that is exactly what these three books are about this week. All of these authors and characters seem to be letting go, embracing, and even learning from their past. In Run, Baby, Run Nicky Cruz decides to embrace his terrible past in this unforgettable autobiography. Nicky truly takes us through the remarkable transition from gruesome gang fighter to fearless believer. Next we have Present Over Perfect, which encourages us to slow down long enough to appreciate the past and the present. The last book that I read through was Hearts Made Whole by Jody Hedlund. We hadn’t gotten any new books in a while and so I was pretty curious to see what this one was about. In the subject of dealing with our past, this book contains two characters who have trouble letting go of their past. As Ryan is trying to deal with traumatic events of the war, Caroline has to give in to the fact that her father is gone and she has to do whatever it takes to fill his shoes and raise her younger siblings on her own. Through these books, we are reminded that God never forgets about us. He has a plan for each and every one of us. So come on down to the Cross Reference Library and check out these great books. 

What Is The Deconstruction Movement? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole
So our question morning is on a new topic I've never really heard of. So I've been doing some reading and some digging into this, and I'm excited to talk about it. So here it is, "Can you talk about the deconstruction movement? Where are its origins? What are the premises of its teaching? What are the dangers? What is the appeal and how should we view it?" So a lot of questions in there, but the kind of main point is, what is this deconstruction movement? How is that affecting the church? Things like that. So, Gary, why don't you open this up?

Gary Schick
Well, and do you want to go a little bit into the roots of it first? I mean, I got some scripture stuff I want to talk about.

Ben Poole
I didn't have much on the history, just more kind of the now culture of it.

Gary Schick
From what I could gather, and it's new to me too, is that basically it kind of comes along the concept of taking your faith, examining it, kind of breaking it down and looking things over and saying, is this what I believe? And then going forward. And the way from what I read, I could see something, a positive direction to take with this, and I could see a negative direction. You know, it kind of made me think of Socrates' old quote, "The unexamined life is not worth living." And so maybe the faith premise would be the unexamined faith. Is it worth having or holding onto? And I think that there is biblical grounds for examining our faith. 1Thessalonians 5:21 says, "But test everything, hold fast to what is good." Elsewhere in scripture, we see, "Test the spirits, for not every spirit is of God." And I think in our own lives, we are constantly doing this as we grow. We're taking what we've learned, Paul tells Timothy, "Remember what you've learned from your youth, hold on to that," but we're also digging deeper, re-examining our lives. I think the question for me really is, what is the standard we are testing our faith against? Is it scripture? Is it Jesus? Or is it me and what appeals to me? You know, we do read in Matthew 24:10-13, Jesus said, "And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another and many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold, but the one who endures to the end will be saved." 2 Timothy 4, "Now the spirit expressly says that in later times, some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared." 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but have itching ears. They will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions." Am I going after what appeals to me and slowly rejecting my faith, as I believe some in this deconstructionist movement have done? Or am I deconstructing the old self and putting on more and more of Jesus? Jesus said in John 17:17, "Sanctify them in the truth, your word is truth." So there is the bottom line for me. What is your truth standard? If your truth standard is your own judgment, your definition of truth is going to shift and drift over time. And you may be among those departing the faith. If it is God's word, you will be anchored firm, and you will be slowly, piece by piece building your house more and more carefully, I hope, on Jesus. I think there is a deconstructionist heartbeat to the gospel that says, "Putting aside the old self, putting on the new. Taking off the old, putting on Jesus; dying to self, living to Christ." And that's what you mean by deconstructionism, let's go for it 100%. If it's, "Well, I don't know if this appeals to me, you know, really, I don't think this part of Jesus' teaching is culturally relevant today." Then I'm sorry, we part ways there. I'm not going down, I'm going with Jesus. Jesus the same yesterday, today, and forever. God in the flesh, the image of the father, that's who I want to follow, regardless of what new wind of teaching is blowing today and blowing smoke tomorrow.

Ben Poole
Yeah. So this is something that I think, the terminology I've never heard of, but the more I read into it, I've seen it. I think it's so clear. One person I was reading from, from an atheistic perspective was talking about, you know, the sixties and seventies when there was kind of this movement out of the church. And, "We should be pushing that and we should become more like Europe and we should just exclude religion altogether and just focus on humanism essentially." And so what's crazy to me is, this is actually a larger issue than I think I ever realized. I'm gonna read just a little bit from one author, from Relevant Magazine, which is a Christian magazine. But I just want to read something he wrote. He says, "As a life coach working with deconstructing Christians, most of the people I've seen walk away from the faith did so, not because of their struggles with God, but because Christian churches have become too wrapped up in the very things Jesus spoke against with the Pharisees. Who could really blame a person for walking away from a religion when it has been so intertwined with systems of greed, oppression, manipulation, and control? I get it, it often seems all of Christiandom has forgotten the greatest commandment, love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. People are not deconstructing because they want to hear theology that tickles their ears. They're deconstructing because most churches have forgotten the core principles of Jesus's ministry. They've forgotten their first love." And I understand that, to a point. I get that we can sometimes see problems in churches.

Gary Schick
Because there are people there that are sinners that need to be saved by grace.

Ben Poole
A hundred percent. And he talked about some bands that have left the Christian faith, church leaders that have left the Christian faith, and kind of place them under this deconstructing movement. They have examined what they believe, then they examine what the church is doing or teaches, and they say, "You know what, this isn't jiving, and so I'm out." And I know that it's probably a lot deeper and probably, you can't put a blanket statement like that over all of them. Everybody has their reasons for the decisions they make. But I think my struggle here, is that I agree completely with what you said. That there is a call for deconstructing, in the right way. What happens is, people don't want to do it the right way. They want to look at the culture and they want to look at themselves and say, "I need it to fit me, and not me fit what God has called me to be." And I think that there's a healthy way to do this, if our goal is to become more Christ-like. So the struggle is, why I'm part of a church that doesn't do this. So my problem here that I would wrestle with is, then why would you leave the thing, you know that needs help?

Gary Schick
Well, yeah, and again, there's nothing new here. Unfortunately, it's true, a lot of people, churches full of hypocrites. And how well do you live up to the full teaching of Jesus? I mean, the sermon on the Mount, it's exactly who we should be, and we all fall incredibly far short. So the easiest person for me to forgive is me. You know, I can pass over just about anything I've done. But if you were to say, or think the things about me that I may have thought about you and forgive, well, I might not forgive you for that. It's always hard to forgive somebody else. It's always easy to forgive ourselves. And so, you know, does the church need constantly to be reformed to scripture? In fact, one of the principles of the reformation was reformed and every forming, and I'm not talking about reformed theology here. I'm talking about the principle of reforming back to God's word. The whole concept in the days of the reformation was that the church has drifted away from the clear teachings of the gospel and the word. I know some listeners are gonna agree and some are going to disagree. But I think the principle really should be good for all of us that we want to get ever closer to Jesus and closer to his word. And so, does the church get comfortable as a group with certain sins and certain blind spots? Absolutely. Representative of many individuals with those, including ourselves. And so I think we need to be constantly breaking out of our sin and breaking into more of Jesus. And it's a challenge for the church as well, but that brings revival. When we humble ourselves before God and make him and his word our standard and not ourselves.

Ben Poole
So another direction that I kind of want to go for just the last few minutes we have here. When I was reading from the perspective of someone who is not a Christian, and I said, atheist. I don't know if they're atheist or not, I don't know exactly, but definitely from a non biblical worldview. A lot of the things that came up and says, "Well, examine the facts because so much can't be proven, so much taken on faith and all these things." And so people will use that as almost their own proof text of, "If I can't see it, touch it, smell it, you know, whatever, it's not real enough for me. That the lack of evidence proves to me that there's holes in this belief system. Therefore I'm not going to be part of it." And I wanted to, because I don't have in my head and my knowledge, all this beautiful information that is out there for proof towards the truth of the gospel message, the truth of scripture. One of them is one of my favorite books. I think every Christian should have in their libraries, The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. A phenomenal story of a man, you probably know this, there's even a movie about it, who was an atheist. His wife became a Christian, and then he decided, "I'm going to prove her wrong," essentially, and went out and ended up finding Jesus and the truth of the gospel. Another one is by Josh McDowell, again, grew up an atheist. Went out to absolutely prove the Bible was false and came to the point where he said, "There's so much evidence pointing towards the truth, it's undeniable." And he wrote, he's written lots of books, but one of them is Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

Gary Schick
Followed by more of Demands a Verdict, and More Than a Carpenter. And he's written so many.

Ben Poole
Basically what I'm saying is, if there's issues you're struggling with, there are resources, extra biblical resources out there. Never place those above scripture, scriptures above all, but use these other resources. Like guys like Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel that have invested unbelievable amounts of time in their life who began out as atheists, who found the proof.

Gary Schick
And don't forget C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity. He was another one of those guys, he didn't believe.

Ben Poole
I quote C.S Lewis almost every sermon he is so, just gold. There's so many resources for you, if you're truly seeking the truth. Because I think that's the point is, you can be critical if you want, but I think if you would choose in your heart to seek the truth.

Gary Schick
But, and I think, and this goes beyond our talk today, but I think they've called it like, post enlightenment. Just the idea that out there, it's out there for some, that basically you can't know anything. I mean, even things that we accept as scientific fact, so to speak. And of course we do, we live in a culture and in a time when everything is questioned. And it really comes down to, "Well, what's true for me versus what's true for you." But there again, if you are in the standard of truth, there is no basis for truth. Truth has to be something that's out there independent of us. And if there is a God in the universe who created all, he ultimately is that standard of truth. If there are true laws of nature, there are things he put in place. So you can come to a knowledge of the truth, if you're really desiring that. On the other hand, if you're just looking for a life of, what pleases me, well, I got nothing to say. Because you're just going to kind of keep recreating the universe around yourself. And even if you wanted a perfect church, there was a guy who founded it and it's a church at zero, cause he couldn't attend there either. But Jesus died to save sinners, among which we include ourselves, because people who are following him, but he's our standard.

What's New at Cross Reference Library? - Life’s Tough, But it Could Always be Worse

Forgotten Girls - All over the world, women and girls face starvation, displacement, illiteracy, sexual exploitation and abuse. In fact, statistics show that the world’s most oppressed are overwhelmingly female. Moved by their plight, Kay Marshall Strom and Michele Rickett took a trip across continents to partner with ministries working to help females and to interview girls in some of the most difficult places in the world. These pages hold those girls’ stories: stories of deep pain and suffering, inspiring courage, and incredible hope. They are the stories of girls who have discovered their value in God’s eyes, in the midst of cultures that have rejected them. They are stories of rescue and redemption by God working through compassionate people--people like you. These pages might hold pieces of your story as well, as the authors invite you to pray and speak on behalf of the millions of women and girls who still need to know how much they’re worth. The authors provide specific, practical action steps and prayer points that allow you to get involved as God leads.  

Un-Common - Author Carey Scott invites you to journey alongside her as she introduces you to women from the Word who chose to live uncommon lives even in the toughest circumstances. From stepping into scandalous situations to breaking cultural norms to risking the departure of a comfortable life, you will discover hope and motivation to live God’s way in a world that screams, “Tuck your faith away! Just be normal like everyone else!” Now more than ever, it’s time to step into something new...something life-changing and life giving. God is asking you to shine His light into a world that needs to know there is a better way to live. And  when you say yes to becoming uncommon, it's a radical act of obedience to the One who created you to be extraordinary. With authenticity, vulnerability, humor, and refreshing boldness, Uncommon will empower you to rise up...to reject the common...to embrace your calling...and to live in a way that points others to God. Buckle up, friend. It’s time to be uncommon.

Hope When Your Heart is Breaking - You’ve lost someone you love. Or you’re on the brink of losing your marriage...your dreams...your health. Or perhaps the trauma of your past pursues you into the present. Your life is going to change. Which way it goes won’t be decided by your loss but by the choices you make. At the crossroads of grief, one road will lead to hope and healing. The other, to more hurt. Hope When Your Heart is Breaking is an honest look at both roads, and how your greatest loss can lead to your greatest gain. Author Ron Hutchcraft writes from the deep well of his own devastating loss and grief, pointing you to practical steps that lead to peace and wholeness. This book is a pathway to hope--a roadmap through the pain of grief and loss. Discover new strength through a new closeness to others and to God. Make the decisions that lead to comfort, growth, and life.

Growing up, I was always complaining, like most kids do, about how hard my life apparently was. Yet my dad would always reply, “Well, at least you don’t live in a tin hut in Uganda, eating the latest grab from the local dumpster.” After a while it became a little joke between the two of us. But as I began to read Forgotten Girls, I started to realize how truly blessed I am. The stories that Kay Marshall Strom and Michele Rickett heard while on their journey were just devastating. The first story they tell is about a little Indonesian girl named Beti. She was an orphan girl who was brutally beaten and abused by the local witch doctor who took her in. The Christian seminary that was in the village at the time heard about her mistreatment and were able to rescue her. Each of the stories that were found by these two authors are all examples of how much God loves us. Even when hope seems so far away and it looks like God has just forgotten about us, the perfect miracle happens and we realize that God never left us in the first place. Another part of life that always seems like the “end of world” is being Un-Common. I know that I can personally say that being myself in public constantly feels like a bad idea. But author Carey Scott reassures her readers through personal experience and biblical examples, that it is ok to be exactly who God made you to be. The final book I read through was Hope When Your Heart Is Breaking. This book was written by a guy who had gone through some devastating losses over the past few years. He lost his wife unexpectedly and his father passed away during an open heart surgery. But Ron Hutchcraft reminds us that in those circumstances, there is still hope. In chapter two, he tells a story about his last moments with his dad. When his dad was preparing for his open heart surgery, he asked Ron to read the Twenty-third Psalm. So he read verses one through three, but once he stopped, his father continued from memory with verses four through six. Ron could tell that his dad was at peace in that moment feeling the hope in those verses. And not too long after, as Ron put it, “Biblically, he relocated to “the house of the Lord forever.” So if life seems pretty insane right now and you need a little hope and encouragement, come on down to the Cross Reference Library and check out these very special page turners!

“Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.” (Psalm 23:4,6)

Why Are So Many Marriages In The Church Failing? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Poole and Gary Schick.

Ben Poole
Okay, our question is, "I'm greatly disturbed by what seems like a sudden rash of marriages in the church that are crumbling. What are we doing wrong? And is this a sign of the times of the end?" So, I think we all can see culture affecting marriages and yeah we definitely see this even in the church, which is really sad, especially. And I know that it's probably detrimental all over the world. But it seems like we can see it pretty clearly right now. Especially with social media and things that we see, even from what we've talked about in the past. Those high profile or those popular pastors and culture and even their marriage is crumbling. So Gary, what are your thoughts on this?

Gary Schick
Well, it's a big topic, and it's kind of a two-fold topic. It's marriage, it's marriage in the church, and it's a question about the end times. It's actually three things there, okay? So, and just regarding marriage, I mean my parents are divorced. I think the divorce is probably, and just somewhere, all of us are related to somebody and maybe it happened to you. And so I guess anytime we talk about this, I want to be sensitive because I know that every situation is different. That many people who enter with the best of intentions find themselves in a broken marriage. It's always a risk when you walk down the aisle with somebody because you, no matter how well you know them, you don't know them until you've said I do. And so a lot of prayer and thought should go into that. But that said, I just want to mention a couple of things. One, I think we need to be mindful of our own discipleship. It's true. And you know, I didn't look it up in preparation for today, but I've heard it over and over again. That the level of divorce in the church is not only equal to, but sometimes higher than that in the world. I wonder if that comes from an expectation, people have, Christians have, "I'm marrying another Christian, and so it's going to be like this." And so maybe there's just a little problem in our own theology. We are sinners saved by faith. And one of the things I like to impress on couples is, "Now just know that I think you've made a good choice here. You're both wonderful people, but you are marrying a sinner. And you won't really know the degree of your own sin I don't think, until you get married." I know for me, I didn't know how selfish I was, when I lived on my own till I was 35, but living side by side with another person. And it's not because she was trying to push it in my face, it just became evident over and over again. How after living really 10 years almost on my own out of college, I was just living for myself in so many ways. Even as a pastor, my world revolved so much around me, and now I had to learn how to, and I'm still learning how to make my life more about someone else. And that's where I think the beautiful model that Jesus gives us about marriage, in Ephesians 5, really comes into play. He talks about the wife's role, is the church relating to him. And the husband's role is Jesus relating to his bride, the church. And those are standards none of us can live up to fully. But they are standards we need to embrace. And so maybe we have this thought that we're just going to enter marriage and the good things we've had in our dating life are just, it's going to be like that. Marriage, marriage changes everything. I kind of divide my own life into two phases. There was pre my wife, Bridget, and there is post, after her. And it's, I love it. I wouldn't go back for anything, but it's a whole different life. You truly have to lay down and let go of all the expectations you had and just accept the fact that God has put you out on a whole new adventure. And it's going to take a lot of trust in him and a lot of working together. Lots of great marriage advice out there, but maybe the best is, a good marriage is made up of two strong forgivers. You know, and I know I've mentioned other things in the past. It maybe helped some folks out there. A pastor friend of mine in town, pastor Jake Roberts, gave me some advice that I've passed onto many couples. He says, "You know, the husband has four jobs biblically, and the woman has two. Her jobs are to support and encourage him and to show appreciation to him. And really to be alongside co-worker. His job is to protect, to provide, to nourish, to cherish her. And wives, you may be saying, "My husband's not doing that for me." Do your part, and it may start to come from him. Husbands, you may say, "My wife's not doing that for me." Do your part, and the right thing might come from her. God's not asking you to fix your spouse, He's asking you to follow him. And so it's about discipleship, it's following Jesus. But regarding the last days, sure, there will be a great falling away. And Paul talks to Timothy about, in the last days will come times of difficulty and the people, I won't read the whole passage, but it's summed up really in verse two, for people will be lovers of self. And so does that play in a marriage? Of course it does.

Ben Poole
This is such a huge topic. And you hit on so many great points. I would say that, man I have so much to say, there so much. I guess I'd start a couple of resources that I know my wife and I have worked through outside of scripture alone. One of them is the Five Love Languages, excellent book by Gary Chapman. And the other one that we did our pre-marriage counseling through was Love and Respect by Dr. Emerson. Eggerichs, fantastic. Both of these come directly out of scripture. Pulled from scripture, they're Christian authors and teachers highly recommend those. Talking to my wife last night about this question and, kind of, you know, gathering thoughts on this. And she really kind of pointed out just a real clarity. She said, "It's really actually quite simple. It's about selfishness." And that's really kind of what you were just talking about was, we, especially when you're newly married, like you talked about. You don't realize you are in love with this person, but you're also kind of in love with yourself. And then you have this wrestling of, I'm selfish and maybe not hurtful selfish, but you're not trying to hurt your spouse at all. You're trying to live up to certain expectations, but at the same time you're still dealing with, I was on my own, I had my own life. I had my own schedule and now I'm kind of at the hands of someone else, someone else's schedule, and someone else's life. And it's a real learning curve to adjust to not just living with someone, but being a husband or wife of someone. You are responsible for and responsible to someone else, and it's huge. And I think a lot of people in our culture, especially, you know, a lot of kids look at celebrities as examples, which they probably shouldn't do that. But I mean, it's sort of like bragging rights on, well I was with this person, and then we got divorce. And I went with this person, we got divorced, and it's sort of like, we're keeping a record of this. And so our culture is not helping that longevity of marriage. Just recently I got to help celebrate and perform a service, renewing vows for a couple in our church. Celebrating 50 years of marriage, and talk about how rare that is. You know, we kind of think of our grandparents maybe as they've held on. But we kind of look at it now like, I don't know how you can do that. And I think it goes back, and we talked about this once before, it's keeping God at the center. You know, we talk about marriage between husband and wife, but it's more than that. It is between us and God. It is a covenant relationship we're making with someone else and with God, and not to be taken lightly. And I really appreciate what you brought out in Ephesians talking about marriage. A lot of times in our culture, especially, you know, Paul talks about the wife needs to submit to the husband and respect him. And that's kind of where a lot of people stop and say, "You know what? I don't like that, I'm not going to keep reading." And, but if we do keep reading what he brings about from the husband's perspective, it's deeper and scarier at times.

Gary Schick
Lay down your life for her.

Ben Poole
Yeah. He says, "You are to treat her like Christ loves the church." Well, how did Christ love the church? He gave his life for her. That puts it back on us as men and husbands, to live in such a way that I can love my wife in the good and the bad, in sickness and in health. And it's not that we can't, because we're called to so therefore we can. Love her and honor her in the exact same way that Christ does the church where he gives himself up for her. And that's our honor, I believe as husbands to live in such a way. And if we do that, there's no perfect marriage. There's no perfect relationship. You know, maybe you're listening and you're not married yet. And you have a lot of these, grand beautiful visions of what it's gonna look like. And some of those are true and they will, and there's going to be some hard days. There going to be some seasons where there's a lot of struggle and issues and tension in your marriage, especially when kids come around. And how do we raise them? How do we discipline them? What do we do? But even in that, we are given an opportunity to love and respect one another. And our kids will see that, the world will see that. But I just want to encourage you don't give up, don't ever give up. A lot of people think the grass is greener on the other side and something else looks beautiful. And I've always said, the grass may be greener, but it might be planted over the sewer tank too. You know what I mean? So invest in the people you've committed to and invest in your spouse. You know, my wife and I talk about, we have three and one on the way, kids. And I hear a lot of people talk about how their kids are the most important people in their lives. And I tell my kids, "I do love you, but you are not the most important person in my life, my wife is." And if we can live the way God has called us to live and have our marriages the way God has called our marriages to be everything works out. Everything comes into place just the way they should. So I just want to encourage you guys, I mean, look for resources, find help, talk to people, because everybody's struggled in one way or another.

Gary Schick
We've been down the road.

Ben Poole
Yeah. And so we want to be here as pastors, but also as two husbands, you know. That know that you can talk to our wives too. And ask questions and find out what we do or what worked and what didn't work. I'm pretty open about my struggles and things that I struggle with. So, but don't feel like you have to go this alone and don't think that divorce is your only option. Yeah, that's, that's pretty much what I got. I mean, there's so much more we could talk about, but we just want to be encouraging to you to know that God loves you. God loves marriage and designed it as something beautiful for us to enjoy and to be in the midst of the pleasure of marriage, even in the struggles.

Gary Schick
Wouldn't trade it.

What's New at Cross Reference Library? - "A Whole New World"

With Fresh Eyes - Too often we take for granted what we see everyday. We long for the extraordinary when we set aside time with God in a quiet room. But we don’t think to look for his hand in a traffic jam or while walking the dog. For Karen Wingate, sight itself is something extraordinary--and what our eyes can reveal is even more astounding. Karen lived most of her life with severely limited sight due to a genetic defect. But through the chance outcome of a surgery in her mid-fifties, she doubled her visual acuity. As she eagerly explored a more detailed world for the first time, she also began to see God in every new discovery--from the glory of sunsets to the prosaic numbers of a bathroom scale. You, too, can awaken to the wonder of what you observe--great and small--and how God is working in everyday moments. In each of her sixty meditations, Karen’s humor and whimsy draw a connection between physical sight and spiritual understanding that will leave you with a renewed delight in what is good and beautiful.

Every Knee Shall Bow - For the first time in history, the Roman emperor supports the church. But the fledgling faith’s future still hangs in the balance. Flavia, a Roman senator’s daughter, is sent from her convent by Bishop Sylvester to seek Emperor Constantine’s permission to determine the canon of scripture and build great churches where pagan temples once stood. But God’s enemies are on the move, and the path to the bishop’s goals is fraught with peril. Flavia’s beloved protector, Germanic barbarian Brandulf Rex, has fought his way out of exile. He and Flavia will cross the empire by land and sea on this epic quest to free the Roman people from the tyranny of the ancient gods. Will the early Christians receive the Word of God? Will beautiful churches rise in Rome where pagan temples once stood? Or will the world's greatest empire keep refusing to bow the knee to its true and rightful Lord?

Rest Girl - Are you bone-tired, girl? Does your soul feel fatigued? Jami Amerine gets it. She was there. Overcommitted, under-slept, stretched thin, continually trying yet constantly falling short as a woman, a mother, and a Christian. But there’s more to life than this:

• More Rest

• More to taste and see

• More tenderness, mercy, and guidance

• More abundance, peace, and joy

• More everything

In a climate steeped in stress and worries, this book offers a priceless opportunity to experience the refreshing freedom of true rest so you never slip into limiting belief or doubt again. Author Jami Amerine (Well, Girl) will guide you on a moving, humorous, engaging, and life-altering journey to experience the unconditional love of the Father as the girl He adores (that’s you!) and an opportunity to change your world! 

One of my most favorite Disney songs is “A Whole New World” from Aladdin. When I was reading these books this week, the subjects that the authors went over reminded me of that song. In, With Fresh Eyes, it was literally a “Whole New World” for Karen Wingate, because she had never been able to “see” it before. Just like how it is for new believers in Christ. Before you decide to trust in Jesus, you are blind to how beautiful the world truly is when God is known by you. Every Knee Shall Bow contains a whole other world entirely, bringing us into the Roman Empire during the rise of the Christian church. That is exactly what I love about historical fiction books. How an author can show us a perspective of a story that thousands of people have heard hundreds of times. The last book that I looked at was Rest Girl by Jami Amerine. Life is crazy, unpredictable, exhausting, and according to Jami just a little bit of rest is exactly what you need to say good-bye to the craziness of life and hello to a more focused relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. So come on down to the Cross Reference Library and discover a whole new world in what you believe. 

“A whole new world, a new fantastic point of view” 

- A Whole New World from Aladdin

How To Have a Biblical Marriage (Part 4) - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Kiley Callaway, Tyson Lambertson, John Mulholland and Jon Simpson.

Jon Simpson
We've been on this topic of marriage, understanding the importance of having healthy marriages for our community, knowing that God has built really everything on marriage, all the way back in the beginning of the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. And so we know that it matters to God, and yet we understand what a challenge it is to navigate marriage and to try to move in the right direction with our marriages, towards marriages that are God honoring. And so of course, we looked at a number of different topics inside of this and how to work at our marriages, work on our marriages. And so this week we want to look at the idea of hanging in marriage and resisting, sometimes the urge to get out. With the understanding that there are situations where individuals need to leave a marriage. For reasons of abuse or physical danger, we're not advocating that you would stay in every marriage all the time, no matter what. But we still want to talk probably to the majority of marriages that are going to have a temptation at times, to give up on it because of the pressure, because of conflict, because of not feeling the same feelings that we once felt. And so I think that's where scripture really gives us direction. And so Kylie, you got a kind of a key passage for us. Would you read that for us?

Kylie Callaway
Yes, John, I would. Matthew 19:3-6 says this, "And Pharisees came up to him and tested him. This is Jesus by asking, is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause? Jesus answered, Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning, made them male and female and said, therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife? And the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh. What, therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

John Mulholland
I think you need to continue for a second. So I'll read the next ones. "Then why did Moses say in the law that a man could give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away? They asked. Jesus replied, Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended." So I think we can stop there. You know, when you talked about abuse or physical situations, I think this is a challenging topic because, each one of us in ministry, we have dealt with a situation where there has been abuse or someone's been in physical danger in their marriage. From a marriage perspective, we still have an ideal, and we still have to talk about that as an ideal thing, that divorce is not within God's plan. I think we can say that. And yes, we can allow for realities that each one of us has dealt with, but that doesn't eliminate, or just because there is always the sinfulness of man, there is hard hearts. I think there are times where we are afraid to talk about this because of these scenarios and situations that each one of us have dealt with. And I don't think we can just say, we can't talk about the ideal because there are realities in people's lives. But I also think the flip of that is true. We can't talk about the realities of people's lives and then deny the ideal, if what I'm saying makes sense. So, I know our caution is, like you said at the beginning, we don't want to say you should stay married no matter what, even in a physical, abusive situation. Cause none of us would ever say that. But the truth is that doesn't negate what God calls people who are married to, which is I need to strive in my relationship to not divorce. And the only reason I can, the only reason I want to, or the only reason that's allowed us because of the hardness of my heart. And that hardness might be because I don't love my spouse anymore. That hardness might be physical abuse of my spouse against me. But I think that allowance of divorce or the fact that the divorce was permitted is only a concession because of the sinfulness of mankind. So, as we think about those situations, we have to recognize that the only reason that we are even allowed to consider the possibility of divorce is because of our sinfulness, which might manifest itself in lots of different ways. But the bottom line is, when we get married God wants us to remain in that marriage. And if there's abuse, we should leave, or if there's physical danger, we should leave. If there's marital infidelity, we have the ability to step away from that.

Kylie Callaway
And I agree with you and the points that we laid out. I mean, if we are totally and completely following the word of God and seeking God first. Praying together, reading the word together, submitting to him, killing our flesh, dying to ourselves, and submitting to God. If we're learning how to have fun with one another, if we're learning how to fight fair, cause there will be fights, I think we're less likely to be abusive to our spouse. So I'd go back to say, you know, when it's gotten to that point, have we even taken the steps that we've talked about today, to make our marriage as Godly as it can be? There are those cases where yes, there is abuse, there is not only physical abuse, there's emotional and there's verbal abuse. And I do agree with that, I never promote divorce. I do say that I think there's areas for separation to where, that man or that woman could come to their senses. To realize that I've erred, on the wrong side of the word, and I've lost something valuable to me. That gives the room for the holy spirit to bring restoration. And sometimes unfortunately, because of the hardness of the heart, some people just don't want to reconcile.

John Mulholland
Do you have some pushback on that Tyson? I feel like there are some things you want to say about that.

Tyson Lambertson
No, I'm just trying to formulate the proper context in this, because there is that emotional and that physical and sexual idea of, this is not healthy. And it's not going to get better because it's a continual habitual pattern. And I think that habitual pattern really lends to the hardness of heart. Not putting Christ as reverence, of the center of our life, and in this idea of not giving up. I think those things we set aside, and we talk about marriages who perhaps just have these tit for tat fights and we get upset because of the way we're treated. Again, I realize that all of us are sinners and we don't have it. And when we have an authority issue or are always trying to one up, that lends to this separation and we cannot, we cannot go there. We have to stay strong in our connection, and that's what we're talking about, is remaining strong in the connection, not giving up. Realizing that you have to lay down your sword and sometimes surrender, to allow the Lord to do what he wants to between a husband and wife.

John Mulholland
I think also this comes down to, these are deep spiritual things that we're talking about. And whether it's physical, mental, emotional, or verbal abuse, those things are just manifestations of what's happening in that person's heart. So, I guess what I mean by that is, there's a whole lot of things wrong with a person who is doing that. And as followers of Christ, we want to help people deal with their sin problem and point them to Christ. And those things are just the way that their sins manifest themselves. So, if I have a couple or a person typically in this situation, it's been a female that, "My spouse is doing this, I want to get a divorce." I think that is a last step. I'm not saying it's not unbiblical, I'm not saying it's not uncalled for, and I'm not saying it's not unreasonable. I would be hesitant to just say, "Yeah, you should divorce that." And I'm not saying you shouldn't be in a place where you're safe or anything like that, but I think our world has this whole concept of marriage backwards in terms of what it is and what it's not. And what makes this just a really sensitive subject, are the people that each one of us have talked to, and the realities that they deal with. But we're still presented with an ideal, I mean it's something that God has created. So we have to be, cautious and hesitant in the way that we talk to people who are in the midst of those very real things.

Tyson Lambertson
Well, I think one of the reasons why divorce is such a strong statement from the Lord that God hates it. Is that it's just really the beginning in the relationship, because now you live separate lives. But perhaps you have kids and divorce destroys relationships, not only the marriage relationship, but down the chain, or even with parents and grandparents and all of those situations. So divorce is one of those things that just destroys relationship, and God wants us to have relationships. And so that's why it's so important to onboard people, to help you avoid giving up. We have those realities of infidelity, of abuse that sometimes we need to say, no, don't stick in there. This is bad, this is not going anywhere, nothing's getting better. But if there's some repentance and some forgiveness offered or asked for, who am I to say no to that? Who are we to say no to that? To stay in the game, to make it better, become self-aware of our own junk, and deal with our own stuff so that we can be better in a relationship. That's what I think about, never giving up, realizing I've got to deal with myself so that I can help my spouse, help Tammy be better.

Jon Simpson
Yeah. I think the heart of this is that the people of Israel lobbied to Moses for the, okay to do this. And Jesus just reasserting, "Hey, don't think God was okay with that. And there's just too often, that as a rule we gravitate away from, we just do as human beings, we gravitate to what we want away from what God commands us to do. And we want to make all the reasons in the world of why it's okay and justified to do it. But the truth is, Jesus did a hard reset on marriage and he said, "No, actually that wasn't okay." And I think at times we just need to be self-aware of our culture and recognize that we've moved the same direction. And we want divorce really for almost any reason, and we find all kinds of reasons to justify it. That's what happens. And yes, it's a hardness of the heart, just like it was in the Old Testament, a lot of the time. And I'm talking about the big middle of the majority, and we're talking about extremes and exceptions and they're there. But really I think if we're to be honest with ourselves, and honest with what God thinks, we'd hang in a lot more. We'd fight a lot harder, we'd resist our selfish desires a lot more, and we'd hold ourselves accountable. Our churches, our people, our pastors, whoever to, "Hey, no, getting out is not the right answer." Yes. Working on me and growing spiritually and being more, in tune and obedient to what the scripture says. Because just even as you've said, a lot of times in this Tyson, in this whole marriage talk, humility is one of the hardest things to do. But man, it's a good thing to just go, "Hey, have I gotten to a place where I've been hurt? I just don't want to forgive anymore, I don't want to stay in this, I don't like it. I'm not happy." And our culture puts a lot of emphasis on happiness, you know? I mean, I've heard people go, "Well, I shouldn't just stay married for the kids. You know, that's not a good enough reason." I'm like, maybe it is, maybe actually those kids, you know, it's been said in the secular world that we're just selfish in our marriages. We don't care that much about the kids, because the kids get damaged. We all know they get damaged a lot more in divorce, but where is that? Hey, maybe we should stay in this for the kids. I don't know. Maybe it's not a bad thing.

John Mulholland
No. I think what we've gotten away from is, marriage is a covenant. And covenant means commitment. And I think that's why God hates divorce, is cause marriage is so much an example of God's love for us. And the example of the church.

Tyson Lambertson
Well, a covenant, a blood covenant was never meant to be broken. A commitment in today's society is a contract that can be null or void. It'd be argued in a court of law. And those types of things, the covenant, the God honoring covenant is meant not to be broken. And I think the stick-to-itiveness is important. I do think culture has played into, if I'm not happy, I'm gonna just run, I'm out. And that's with anything, that's with education. But marriage is right in there, that if I'm not happy, I'm out; that dishonors the Lord tremendously. And I do think we all have to come to a place from humility that says, "Man, I'm a sinner in need of Jesus, just as much as anybody else. And I have to forgive because the Bible says, if I don't forgive, how can I forgive you?" And that's a real issue with your first neighbor, you know?

Jon Simpson
Yeah. Well, listen, uh, maybe a little, a little tougher topic this time, but hopefully helpful to you. And again, we'd encourage you as always to get in the scriptures and to see what God has to say about these things, but we care about your marriage. We care about the marriages in our valley and, uh, and we know how important it is that we're strengthening marriage. And so we just pray that you would continue to work at your marriage.

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