Consistent living in Leadership - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Mike Clement, Michael Gleb, Tony Malm, and company.

Mike Clement
We started this conversation and I said, "Well, wait a minute. Let's go back and talk about this." And so, Brother Tony, you were talking about the importance of the idea that what you're preaching from the pulpit isn't just a motivational speech. It's something that needs to be lived out, including you and your family.

Tony Malm
Yes. Oftentimes when we were on the road in evangelism, I would make the statement to that congregation, of course, in evangelism, you're with a different congregation every week. And I would remind them that, "Hey, what I'm preaching here is not just something for Sunday. As a matter of fact, my wife's in the congregation, our son, our daughters, I'm preaching to my family. I'm not just preaching at you people, that we maybe see once a year, but Christianity is something that's to be fleshed out, if you will. It's to find itself in shoe leather on the Mondays and Tuesdays and Wednesdays of life. And, you know, it's amazing how, at least from my perspective, that sometimes people have the idea that being a Christian is all mystical and you escape the realities---the raw realities sometimes---that life can bring. But the fact is, as a pastor, and that's what these programs I've picked up on have had to do from the pastor and his family. Not only does it say that the pastors be the husband of one wife, but the Bible and just two, three verses later says, "one that ruleth well, his own house and having his children in subjection with all gravity." That's from 1 Timothy 3:4. And so the measuring rod for the pastor's qualification has to do with the home. And not that the preachers kids are perfect. I mean, the deacons kids usually are teaching them....No, I'm kidding. But honestly, my children probably heard the first curse words they ever heard, sitting on a pew in a church. And I know that's gonna blow some away to hear that. But we were in church daily and many of the conferences that we were blessed to be a part of, and so there's the reality of, you know, Christianity. It follows us not just from Sunday to Sunday, but from day to day and moment to moment and interaction and challenge. Just right on the way, we have the opportunity to honor the Lord. And God says, if we honor Him, He'll honor us. And I'm so thankful, and I don't wanna take up the whole program, but you know, the greatest blessing for a parent is a child. John said, "I have no greater joy than my children walking in truth." And I'm sitting at a table tonight with two of our children, and I'm thankful for our son, and he and his family are faithful in their church. But a daughter that's just married a pastor, and that has experienced the fact that if you honor God, He'll honor you. As they came to the marriage alter, they brought the gift of purity. It's irreplaceable. And I just pray that God will continue to bless their home, and I know He will, and I'm excited for them. Yet this thing about the gravity in the fact that, you know, what the pastor's preaching to everybody else, well, he's got a checkpoint. Because mom's sitting there, children are sitting there, and so it's a blessing to serve the Lord.

Mike Clement
Years ago, I heard of a congregation that saw a real disparity, wrong word. Whatever, between the pastors preaching. The pastors preaching from the pulpit and the life that he lived during the rest of the week. And someone made the comment. They said "when he preaches, he preaches in a way that we wish that he would never get down. But when he lives during the week, he lives in such a way we wish that he would never get back up again."

Tony Malm
Wow.

Mike Clement
And unfortunately, that happens. You know, that same passage that talks about the qualifications of pastors or bishops. It says, "A bishop then must be blameless." Now, you should understand that blameless does not mean perfect.

Tony Malm
It's not sinless.

Mike Clement
Yeah, it's not sinless. However, I believe that the things that God had in mind are the rest of the things he gives there. But these are the things that, you know, need to be in line with the pastor's life. And it may not be all where we would like to see them. I've always looked for men who are growing, that I can put in positions of leadership. And there have been times when we had somebody come from another church, and I looked at the maturity level of some of our deacons, and he said, "Pastor, you know, why is he a deacon?" And I said, "you can only see where he is right now. You should see where he came from, and the direction that he's going in." I would much rather have somebody in a position of leadership and influence that is growing in their Christian walk. Though, somewhat less mature than somebody who's very mature and dead in the head in every other way. You know, their life may be going in the opposite direction. They may know more about the Bible, but they're not living it. And that's so important. Brother Gleb, how do we apply this from the perspective of being bivocational? Can you define what it means to be bivocational?

Michael Gleb
I'm not a bivocational pastor though.

Mike Clement
You were though, weren't you for a while?

Michael Gleb
No, Actually haven't been able to, and that's, that's been a huge blessing to be able to---

Mike Clement
But comment on it anyway.

Michael Gleb
Well, I'll say this is, you know, sometimes I'm always reminded. I'm like, you know, I'll be up here at the office study in a way, and then I get up on Wednesday night and wonder why they're not as excited as I am to go through the book of Ecclesiastes. And I'm looking out, and I'm thinking to myself, "They've been smacked around by the world today, you know?" And here I was getting excited about studying the Bible, that's what I was doing all day. And, you know, so I have to check myself in that regard and say, "Wait. A little patience with these guys. You know, their tired, they've got the world on them." I sometimes think to myself, "you know, it's a privilege to be able to pastor and not have---and I've been in ministry now, since 2006, full-time ministry. And it looked different in different times, but you know, it's a privilege to be able to study God's word, to help somebody. And when they do come to you on a Wednesday night to give them some encouragement, some needed strength for the rest of the week, so to speak. But, I can't really comment on being bivocational at this point in time, but the Lord may lead me in that direction. Who knows?

Mike Clement
Well, I know for me, there were a couple blessings. One was, I met people that I wouldn't normally meet. I worked with them, you know, they may not come to my church and I might stumble across them at Walmart or something. But I worked with these guys and these gals and so I could see the world that they lived in, and they could watch me live in the same world. And that actually was a blessing. The other thing that helped me understand, was people's limited time. And especially when I was working at the Sugar Beet factory, there was a rotating shift. If you were days this week, you worked afternoons the next week, and you worked midnight the next week, and it rotated around. And boy, some of those were just killers. And then I come to church, you know, just really shot. And that was when my wife's father was the pastor, and I would struggle to stay awake. Just got off of a midnight shift, not enough time to get any kind of a nap. And boy, I would just struggle. And it just gave me a greater appreciation. But that whole idea of being visible, you know, we talk about being visible in the church, the people that are in the church, you're visible in the community too.

Michael Gleb
Yeah. Being in a smaller town like Torrington, you know, I've been here and getting to know people now, the last five years. You know, you go into the radar for the first couple, but you start to get self-involved and, you know, getting friends even outside of church.

Mike Clement
Yeah. And again, there's another place we're talking about. Qualification. It is talking about having a good report with them or without.

Michael Gleb
Yes.

Mike Clement
That's the people you do business with. That's your next door neighbor.

Michael Gleb
And business with. That's important.

Mike Clement
Yeah. I heard a preacher, he was actually a professor at Dallas Seminary, but he just bought a new house. And it was a real deal, because it was the worst looking house in the neighborhood. And so he just threw himself into doing the inside. But he did the outside too, you know, he was planting grass and cutting grass. And he says, he's out there on a real hot, nasty day, sweating like fury. And there's this kid, a neighbor kid that's watching him, and the neighbor kid says to him, "my dad says, 'for a preacher, you sure do work a lot." A little insight to what the neighbor thought. But also a little insight into, you know, what the perspective of a pastor was. And then he said, "the previous owner of that house was a pastor as well." And, you know, we don't worship our lawns. We don't worship our houses. But for people that feel that that's really important, watching their property values go down because of what's going on in your house is important to them and it's got to be important to us. So that whole area of consistency, being the same person---and we've got to be careful because we are called as pastors, were called to be the leader of the church and to lead the flock. But I remember one guy at a conference I went to, he said, "a pastor that's three steps in front of his church is a leader. A pastor that's 12 steps in front of his church is a martyr? You know, you need to understand where your people are, and you bring them along. You know, the shepherd doesn't go running across the field and say, "Keep up!" He's in front at that time. He was in front, but he wasn't aways in front. Always ever to be seen.

Tony Malm
A preacher Evan Hill from Los Angeles talked about, you know, "If you call yourself a leader, but if nobody's following you, your just taking a walk."

Michael Gleb
That's exactly what came to my mind.

Tony Malm
And, you know, in 1 Peter it says, "The elders, which are among you." This thing of being among the people is what I'm hearing. And there's gotta be that interaction. You know, there's even an effort now, an effort of movement; of rather than having a pastor among you and on location, is to go and watch something. And he's in another town. But the Bible says, "among you." The marvel! No wonder God says that it pleased Him by the foolishness of preaching. Here's a person that's breathing the air you breathe, they experienced the hardships. You experienced the same tornado that tore up your house, tore up their house. And yet God uses them with His grace to demonstrate His love. It's undeniable. And only who, but the Lord could have come up with that. We're not just in ivory towers. We live on the same road the other folks live on.

Mike Clement
That's right. As my football coach said, "we put on our pants one leg at a time." You know, I just close with a thought. Years ago, I was making payments to IRS, and I was gonna miss a payment and I knew it. So I went down to the office and I actually got to talk to the guy who was in charge there. Brought me into his office, and I told him what was going on. He said, "well, have you missed any other payments?" I said, "No," and he tapped on his computer and looked at the screen. He said, "Yes, you did. You missed the first one." Well, the first one was in April. I had just finished paying one year, got ready to start paying the next year. And I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I really did." And then he said, "Well, you know, we'll make an exception this time. It's all right, you came in." And then we started just talking. And he said, "You know, it's hard for me to go to church anywhere? And I said, "Is that because you work for IRS, and people don't trust you or whatever?" He said, "No, it's because I know what's going on in the finances of the leadership of the church." And then I said, "Oh, and here I am missing a payment." He said, "No, you came in and you made arrangements." He said, "That's what needs to be done." He said, "By the way, if you're gonna miss another one, make sure you call us before you come in." But boy, I mean, it was something to be learned. Terrible experience there.

Can You Talk About The Different Names Of God? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Jonathan Hernandez, and Gary Schick.

Gary Schick
Hey, we got a great one today. "Can you guys talk about some of the names of God?" And I'm just gonna clue you in listeners. We were like, "No, I want that one." As we're talking about this a little.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, we were fighting over the names.

Gary Schick
So, Jonathan, first, you get all the good ones. There's a lot of good ones.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, there are. So, I went ahead and chose two of them. And so the first one I chose was El Roi. So it's spelled, E-l R-o-i. And so this name came from the story of Hagar in Genesis 16. And so, Adam uh, or Abraham; sorry, I got my stories mixed up in my head.

Gary Schick
It is a little early as we're recording today.

Jonathan Hernandez
It is. So we have Abraham and Hagar, and Abraham obviously is married to Sarah, and they're not able to have children at this time. And so Abraham's nearing the age of, what, a hundred? And he's had a promise from God that he was gonna be the father of many nations, and here he is childless. And through the story, Sarah says, "Why don't you just have my servant Hagar," and so then Hagar ends up being pregnant. And then there's this rift between Sarah and Hagar and just a lot of conflict. And so Hagar runs away and in the wilderness, I guess, she encounters God. And so, she declares God, "the God who sees me in this story." So that's where we come to the word, El Roi. And I think about that. We did a women's conference, or my wife and the women did a women's conference a few years ago, and this was the story that we used during that time. And really just allowing the women to see that, you know, God truly sees you no matter where you're at in life. And so, I think that's good for our listeners to hear, that no matter where we're at. Even if it's in the deepest of our sins, you know, God still sees us and He still cares about us, and He's still coming after us in those times. And it could be in the best points of our lives, you know, where we feel like, "Hey, we're the champions of the world and everything's great. Everything's happening like intended and God still sees us in those moments and still cares for us and is still, you know, is still coming after us in those moments." And so, you know, when I read over that story, I think about those examples, cause there's so many times in life, you know, I think about my life. There's many times when I felt like, "you know, God doesn't see me. How could He see me? You know, I'm living in sin and I'm doing these things and why would God wanna see me in this?" And now looking back seeing, "man, God truly did see me in those times and He truly was still coming after me and pursuing me and trying to bring me into a relationship with Him." And so, you know, just seeing those, you know, those types of examples. I don't know where our listeners are at, but I really hope that they truly see that God truly does see them and wants to have a personal, intimate relationship with them in those times. And so, that was one of the stories that I---the names of God that I chose from scripture. And then the other one was Jehovah Jireh. And I was telling the guys here, "when I was a kid growing up, my mom had a CD in her car that I would always put in, and it was this CD called Metal Praise. And it was heavy metal worship music, and one of the songs was Jehovah Jireh. And I'm not gonna sing it for you guys, cause you guys would probably turn off the radio. It was such a great time in life, I guess, cause you know, I didn't really realize I was listening to worship music. It was just this heavy metal music, and I liked heavy metal music. And so, here I am singing this worship song, you know, "Jehovah Driver, you're my provider." And so I'm sitting there just continuously singing that and not realizing that, you know, all these years singing this song throughout middle or elementary school. I was sitting there declaring to God, "You are my provider." And then at times, like, you know, really just thinking about that. Man, all these times where God provided for us, you know, as a young kid, and then obviously now as an adult. So we look at this Jehovah Jireh, and this origin comes again from Abraham. And this is when he was going up to the hill to Mount Mariah to sacrifice his son. And obviously we know the story, and God provides the lamb and the tree or bush. And, you know, so think about all those times where God provided for you. You know, we can easily take it. I think about five years ago, the heater at the church went out and it's like, you know, the gas company tells us, "This is gonna be a $10,000 job." And we're like, "Wow, this is gonna break us as a church. You know, we got some money in the savings, but this is it. You know, this has taken it all." And through that whole process, you know, we've seen God just providing finances after finances, you know? And so, you know, that's an example of God being the provider in that. But we think of it on an even deeper level, you know, here Isaac is about to be sacrificed. Obviously his life is about to be taken, and God provides, you know, exactly what needs to be at that moment. And, you know, I think about like, in the midst of my rebellion and in my sin, I needed something to be provided and it couldn't be a sports car. It couldn't be, you know, any of these things, it had to be Jesus. And God provided that for me and my place, you know, in the exact moment in time that it needed to be. And so, you know, God has provided that for each of you guys too. That you needed that sacrificial lamb, and God provided that for each of us. And so, those are the two words or names of God that really had spoken to me over. Obviously, all of them have a place in our hearts that, you know, God has spoken to us in those, but these were two that I really enjoyed.

Ben Cline
Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Jonathan. You know, I was just thinking about this question and, you know, this is one of my favorite studies, is studying the names of God. Because each and every one speaks to, you know, a part of God's character that is so, like, intimately involved with our lives. And so it's just neat to see, through scripture the way that, you know, God has provided these things to us as believers and they meant something. And speaking of names, you know, in the Bible names were something that were very important to the people, you know, historically in the Bible. And it's so neat to look into those names; the names that people gave to their children and different things like that. The names that, you know, there were times when God renamed somebody to something else and it was for a purpose and it was because those names meant something. You know, and we can do that now. We can look at our names, and look it up and see if they mean something. You know, I know that my name, I'm not sure if my parents were, you know, thinking about this during the time when they actually named me. But, you know, my name Benjamin means, "Son of my right hand." And I've always taken that, you know, kind of in a humorous way, because I ended up being lefthanded. No, I'm just kidding. But, you know, just thinking about the names of God, they do mean something, and it's just fun to look into. A couple of names that I was looking at; one of them is Yahweh or Jehovah Rohi, and that means, "The Lord is our Shepherd." So you guys think of, you know, this came from Psalm 23, from that first verse that says, "The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not be in want." And we know the, you know, or if you don't know it, you can look up Psalm 23 and read through the rest of that short psalm. And that's really just David's heart, you know, thanking God for who he is and carrying him through the times that were really rough, and taking him to green pastures and still waters. But this is how it starts, he praises God saying, "You are my shepherd." And so he, you know, David there, he's looking at his relationship, and he understands this because he was a shepherd to his sheep, you know, in a very physical hands on way. And, you know, the Lord is our shepherd as well, we are the sheep of His pasture. You know, so we get to look at that one and understand that God guides us and leads us along. God provides protection for us. You know, the shepherds back then, that was a good part of their job; was to provide protection against the enemy animals that would come in to try to eat the sheep and to kill the sheep. You know, we know that this life can be rough. There's a lot of times when we really feel the attacks, you know, from the enemy. But God is our shepherd, He's there to protect us and to guide us and lead us to still waters and green pastures. And so that was one of the names that I got to look at. And then another one is Jehovah Shammah, and I don't know if I'm saying that right, but that's okay. And this name of God means, "The Lord is there," and I love the history behind this. It comes from Ezekiel 48:35 and it says, "the circumference of the city." And when it's talking about the city it's talking about Jerusalem, "the circumference of the city shall be 18,000 cubits. And the name of the city from that time on shall be, The Lord is There. You know, the history of this that I was reading about is that, this was the name that was given to Jerusalem and to the temple there. Just talking about how the once departed, you know, presence and glory of the Lord was now there. And, you know, to me this is a reminder that the Holy Spirit lives inside of us. If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit lives inside of us. And the Lord is "there," and I'm sitting here on the radio pointing to myself. But you know, just that reminder that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. That's how God has designed things for us in this age. And, you know, just that reminder that God is always there. It's easy to think that He's not, but He is always there. He is always with us. So those are a couple of the names that I was thinking of.

Gary Schick
Boy, you know, this could be a series.

Ben Cline
It could be.

Gary Schick
Cause really guys, you have just, and I appreciate that you've kind of gone into a little depth on them. You've just touched on a couple of the Old Testament names of God the Father. We haven't even thought about the names for Jesus and the Holy Spirit here. And probably just to give our listeners a little background, I thought you guys pointed out so well. So, you know, it seems like with a lot of our names, we don't always know the meanings. Scriptural names and particularly names of God have meaning and are revelatory. They reveal something about Him. Furthermore, so many times those names come forth in moments of need. And so, you know, "You are the God who heals me at a time when," guess what the person was looking to God for. "You are the Lord my shepherd. As I'm seeking, as I'm needing that from---you are the God who sees me, you are the God who hears me." All these things, showing the intimacy of who our God is. I just kind of want to key in a little bit here on a couple of the big ones. You were talking about Jehovah Jirah, and that's a great song. How about the Amy Grant song, El Shaddai, right? Everybody, or a lot of us---I shouldn't say everybody---remember this song, and I think it even bridged into the secular world. I think Amy Grant was kind of one of the first to bridge out of the little Christian subculture into; this was actually an album that became popular in the secular world. And how cool that a song, I think it was written by Michael Card actually, who has a number of the names of God wrapped up in it. Listeners, you probably notice some of these names are a little hard to pronounce. That's because they're describing it in the original Hebrew language that it was spoken in. And so, you know, when we say Yahweh Nissi or Jehovah Nissi, "The Lord's my banner." That's what it is in Hebrew. So anyway, probably the key name of God in the Old Testament would be the name that God's people stopped saying. We believe it's pronounced, Yahweh. It was mistranslated back in the days of when they were doing the King James version as Jehovah, so that's kind of an English invented word. And the reason is, is because the Jews took so seriously God's command not to take His name in vain. This was the name that God gave to Moses. Essentially, it means "I am who I am." And so when Jesus stands in the garden of Gethsemane and they, you know, "who are you looking for?" And "well, we're looking for Jesus," and He says, "I am," and they all fell before Him. That's because essentially in Greek, He spoke the very name of God and was identifying Himself. So often in John, we see this close identification with Jesus and Yahweh in the Old Testament. And Yahweh is a sacred name of God that was given by God to Moses in the burning bush. Moses said, "Lord, they're in Egypt, there's all these gods. When they say, 'Well, which God shall I say, sent me to you?" It's the one who really is none of these fake gods. None of these made up gods, the One who is the origin of everything. "I am who I am." And so, how did we get to Jehovah? Well, in the Hebrew, they have kept the letters for Yahweh, but they put in the vowels for a different name of God, Adonai, which means "Lord." And so every time a Jewish person would come to the name Yahweh in scripture, they would see the consonants of Yahweh and the vowels of Lord. They would read Yahweh, but would say, "Lord," so that they did not say the name of God. And then along came the English translators, and just kinda ran that over with a truck and put them all together and came up with this new word, brand new word, Jehovah. But God knows who we're talking about when we speak of Him. And so it's not wrong to say Jehovah, and it's not wrong to use the name of the Lord. I mean, the Psalms are full of the name Yahweh, it's a beautiful name. Boy, there's a lot more names I would just like to touch on here, but let's not forget some of the names of Jesus too. In the Old Testament: Wonderful Counselor, Every lasting Father, Prince a Peace, that's who Jesus is. Let's not forget some of the names of the Holy Spirit: Comforter, Counselor. Just to start, I mean, look at Jesus' final words to the disciples in John 14-17. He lists several names and aspects, descriptions of the Holy Spirit and what he does in our lives. And probably, you guys have seen this too. Have you ever seen that poster with just the names of Jesus? I mean, that could be a series, you know? Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Savior, Prince of Peace, Lion of Judah, right? Lamb of God. So many descriptions of who He is to us. And so, great question, wish we could talk, this is one we could talk about all day. And maybe in a sense, listeners, this is your little assignment, is to kind of think about some of the names of God that you know, and how are they precious to you? And then use those names in your conversation with God as you speak to Him today.

Transforming Lives - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Kiley Callaway, Tyson Lambertson, John Mulholland and Jon Simpson.

Jon Simpson
All right, well we've been discussing life change and transformation as a part of what it means to follow Jesus and to become a follower of His. Again, Jesus didn't just say, "get saved," but he said, "Come follow me." And so following Jesus means; it means some things for our lives. We've been talking about that. Sometimes we don't see the life transformation that we would hope to see. There can be breakdowns in that. So we've kind of been breaking down Romans 12, the first couple verses, and just unpacking that a little bit. John set up this discussion for us.

John Mulholland
Yeah. The last video we talked about, "Not Copying the Behavior and Customs in this World." And one of the things I liked about that conversation is, we didn't get overly specific. Like, it's not a list of dos and don'ts, which I know we're gonna talk more about this time; like making sure of these behaviors. But it really is about who we are, rather than what we do. But this time we're gonna talk about the next part of Romans 12:2, "but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think."

Jon Simpson
So one of the things I observed, just to maybe start this off, is that there has been a tendency throughout the history of the church, and you could say not just within Christianity. But there's been a tendency to try to control behavior and to set up rules, if you will. And kind of go towards those rules as ways of measuring and kind of defining, I guess, this life transformation or observing it. And yet this verse, it seems to me, says the opposite of that, you know? Rather than external rules that we can observe, Kylie I know you're a good Christian because you don't drink, you don't smoke, you don't chew, you don't go with girls, you know, that kind of stuff. But this is a transformation in the way you think, who you are inside. And I don't know why that is not what we gravitate towards in the church. Seems like we gravitate towards the observable metrics and behaviors. So how do we change the way we think? What does that look like and how does that happen?

Kiley Calloway
It all goes back again to finding his good pleasing and perfect will. And that's through the word. As far as---

Tyson Lambertson
Okay, so you would say that primary---I'm just gonna dump a whole bunch of words in.

Kiley Calloway
Dump that.

Tyson Lambertson
So you would say the primary way that God transforms us into a new person by changing the way we think is through his word? Is that fair? Because I would say that.

Kiley Calloway
What's the Bible stand for? Basic instructions before leaving Earth. So, you know, it's not about my works. It's not about me checking off my list: I did this today, I'm a good Christian. It's about getting into the word and transforming my mind. Like I said, you know, last session, there are a lot of things that I just don't agree with, but I have to transform my mind. It's the computer, right? It's the software of how I'm gonna live. But deeper than that, the mind's a terrible place to get into, because I mean, you're talking about strongholds, you're talking about offenses, you're talking about hurts. You're talking about patterns of thinking. You're talking about thinking ruts, thinking traps, icebergs that are there that will drive you to the opposite of God's word. Will drive the flesh and bring out the ugliness in our heart, so to speak, that the Bible clearly says, "Don't do this, don't do that." I mean, we say it's not a list of rules. Actually, there are some lists. There is the law of Christ, now that we've come into the New Testament, there are some things that we shouldn't do. And actually it's a little bit harder than the Old Testament was. But I have to transform my mind and follow the word.

John Mulholland
That's one of my favorite things about reading, especially through Paul's letters, is so many times he'll indicate, like, "the Christian life is not about following a list," and then here's a list for you to follow. Like, I just love the way he does that. So this really, I mean, we could end the video 10 minutes early if we wanted to. So really, what we're telling people is, you need to read your Bible.

Jon Simpson
But can I say something with your comment that he says, "it's not about a list, but then he gives a list?" But I think he gives the list because it is a way to measure, "What are you doing?" If you have these behaviors, you know, he'll say, "if you're doing these things, what you're not doing is living out your relationship with Jesus." Because a person doing that would never do these things. So he does it kind of like a, to me it's a measurement in a way.

Kiley Calloway
The list goes back to, this is the list of what the Lord wants.

John Mulholland
And Paul's list; and when he puts up competing lists. Like, if we were to look in Galatians 5 where we see the work, I think it's the works of the flesh versus the fruit of the spirit. If we were to compare those two lists, the fruit of the spirit are all character. So when Paul gives a list, his lists are character traits rather than behaviors. And whenever he does mention behaviors, the behaviors always flow out of those character lists. So for me, that's so much of what we're talking about here, being transformed into a new person. Like, that's the character that God is after, that Jesus is after, that Paul's after. That this whole book is really working on, is changing our character, who we are inside, like you said.

Kiley Calloway
So that's why it says "so, I say walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

Tyson Lambertson
Well, so our mind is probably the most sophisticated piece of machinery ever known on planet Earth. How God created our minds. If you're like me, my emotions can lead me even though their real, can lead me down the wrong path. And I think that in this, the Lord always wants us to align our mind with His perfect will. His perfect will is in scripture. His perfect will can be fleshed out, but it's a constant battlefield of the world's identity of the mind versus God's identity and how to flesh that. So transformation, when you talk about transformation, cause this is a passionate piece and you having your degree in psychology and counseling and those things, how do you work that? How do you help somebody transform the renewing of their minds? To produce, sorry, produce is probably the wrong word. But to enlighten them to scripture and what God's best is for them.

Kiley Calloway
Right. So if we think about people, all people can do is behave. Like we're behaving with one another right now. We're behaving for this audience, and then when the camera goes off, we'll behave right?

John Mulholland
A different kind of behavior!

Kiley Calloway
Right? So all behavior is total behavior, and if we look at it as a car, there are two wheels up front, two wheels in the back. The two wheels in the back, we don't have a lot of control over, which is our feelings and our physiology. And a lot of people right now in society today are being motivated by their feelings. The Bible says, "let's flip that and let's control the two front wheels, the two front wheels we have direct control over." Sometimes we can't control our feelings. You may say something to me and a feeling wells up, a past event wells up that's been in my mind. But the two front wheels is my thinking and my actions. So as I conform my mind to His word, now the feelings and the physiology align. So now my feeling submits to my mind, because I've renewed it with the word of God. And what I tell people and what the Holy Spirit's been dealing with me is all people can do is give you information. And what you do with that information internally is totally up to you and how much you've gotten into the word. Because people can offend you, people can hurt you, people can say something and your automatic response is to get defensive. But if my mind is filled with His word, then my feelings and my physiology line up. Cause my feelings can affect my physiology. If I start feeling like, "oh my," then I start getting tense and that angry feeling and you know, just shaken. But my mind can control that, especially when it's filled with His word. And again, when I know who I am, I know what to do.

Tyson Lambertson
Just wanna make sure you're not saying that emotions don't matter, because emotions do matter greatly. Correct?

Kiley Calloway
Yes, emotions matter. I mean, that's why God gave us emotions right? That there are indications to certain things. You know, the Bible says, "don't let the sun go down on your anger." Anger is a good emotion in you, but what you do with that is definitely wrong. Fear is an emotion, but it's genetically put in us by God to get away from something that's dangerous. But if we take fear to an area where, you know, it's false evidence appearing real, then it can mess with our mind, that feeling, and we can think of things that are not even there. We can jump to conclusions. We can have all kinds of different things that are affecting us. So no, God's given us emotions, He's given those as indicators. Some indicators of what's going on internally in us as far as our heart and our spirit as warning signs. But to be very careful cause if you allow this emotion to keep going, it could cause some horrible things. But that's where I think, you know---here's what I say---God would've never put it in scripture if we couldn't do it. He's not gonna put something in there that's impossible. With His help, His power, His grace and His mercy, and then the direction of the Holy Spirit, we can transform our minds. We can control those two wheels and the physiology and the feelings will follow.

Jon Simpson
So kind of what I hear you saying too, in this sanctification transformation, is that it can be fruitless in a sense, or backwards if we focus on trying to change what we feel or trying to change those reactions that we can have to things. But really, you said something important, we can change the way we think, and so that's something within our power to change. Which is what the scriptures actually say that we should allow God to change the way we think here, right? He will change the way we think. So as we interact with Him, as we interact with the truth, both through his word, through the Holy Spirit who's present in our lives, then He will change the way we think about things. For instance, I think Jesus---

Kiley Calloway
By getting into the word.

Jon Simpson
So Jesus said, "Hey, don't worry about what you're going to eat, what you're gonna drink, what you're gonna wear. The pagans worry about that stuff. You belong to your father in heaven. He's got you covered." So, kind of a way for Jesus to change the way we think about this life and what matters. Cause it's awful easy to worry an awful lot. Thinking an awful lot what we're gonna eat what we're gonna wear, how we're gonna live. I mean, that consumes most people's lives in this world. And Jesus goes, "no, think differently." Right? Is that a good example of kind of the change of thinking that can change how we feel about stuff?

Kiley Calloway
Yeah, but that doesn't happen instantly at salvation. That's where I still say, as I make Him the Lord of my life, I'm hearing His heart, I'm hearing His mind, I'm hearing how He's thinking. And as I hear how He thinks and what He wants to see in my life. The guardrails He wants me to put in my life, how if I do this, blessing will come. I wanna be blessed, I don't know about y'all. I mean, I'm a little selfish here. I wanna live a good life. And in the word, He shows me ways to be that better person that's gonna bring those blessings. So, yes. You said He changes the way we think. Not instantaneously. I get into His word to discover what He says about my life.

John Mulholland
Yeah, and I think recognizing too, like for someone who's not a believer, and for someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit actively working in their life, most likely they're gonna read this book and it's gonna be gibberish. It's not gonna make any sense. Which goes into, like, kind of a sideline conversation we had before we started recording this whole series was; and maybe this is another day where we record this one, but we asked the question, "are people really saved?" Like, what level of recognizing that the Holy Spirit is the one who, God transforms us, we don't transform ourselves. 100% in agreement with that. If someone has been a Christian for 25 years and there's no marked transformation in their life; like if that were me, I would think it would be reasonable for me to wonder like, "Am I really a follower of Christ?" That's probably a conversation for another day. But I think that's a reasonable point that someone, I think that could be a place where someone could reasonably question that and draw that conclusion. If there is no marked difference in my life, am I really a Christian?

Tyson Lambertson
One thing that we need to make mention of, is in this the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and He's not there with a whipstick or a cattle prod saying, "You messed up, I'm gonna shock you." He's always guiding us into this transformation, and renewal of the moral mind.

What Are Your Churches Doing About The Problem Of Pornography? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Schick, Ben Cline, and Jonathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick
Today's topic is a relevant one because of the world we're living in. And apparently, I don't know, maybe you folks have been hearing about it for a week, because they're asking all the pastors this question. So the question is--it comes to us and it comes to the others---"what is your church doing to address pornography? What resources is your church providing for the betrayed spouse's trauma?" So, Jonathan, you wanna get us rolling?

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, so when I look at this, you know, I would think there could be a listener out there saying, "Well, is pornography really a sin? Is it something that bad?" In scripture, there's a couple things, Matthew 5:28 says, "but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." And so that was the easy one to, you know, go to and look at. Also, Ephesians 5:3 says, "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetness must not even be named among you as is proper among the saints." And 1 Corinthians 6:18-19 says, "Flee from sexual morality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God." And so that would also look at the question as, "Well, pornography doesn't hurt anybody," or right there it just talks about how it hurts, you know, obviously it grieves the Holy Spirit. So, just kind of knocking those things out of the way to look at. You know, so some of the things like within our church, we just make sure, you know, so we'll ask, like in our men's group, and then hopefully our women are also covering these topics too. Cause it, you know, pornography is not just something that is, you know, within the men. There's also women that struggle with it. So just making sure that, you know, it's an open topic and that we're not, you know, somebody comes up to me and they say, "Hey Pastor John, I'm dealing with pornography." I don't shame them or, you know, put them down for it but, "hey, let me walk alongside you with this. I understand how you feel and where you're at." And one thing I always tell him is, "I'd love to hear now, that you say that you're struggling. Because if you're not struggling with this, it's not an issue to you and you're fine doing it all the time. But now that you're struggling, let's continue to walk through this struggle, and get you to the point where you're no longer struggling with pornography, but you're set free from it. And you don't have to continue to walk in that, you know, in that past." Is the enemy always gonna try to use pornography on that person? Probably. You know, the enemy's not gonna just keep bringing up this new stuff. He's like, "hey, you dealt with this in the past. Let me try to get you with this now." And so you always have to stay on guard as that person moves forward. But, you know, also making sure that we're not shaming that person for, you know, coming out and saying, "Hey, this is what I'm struggling with." But then also making sure that they're surrounded by people that are uplifting for them. You know, fellow Christians that that person can call and say, "Hey, I'm struggling right now and I really want to go back into this." And, you know, they can help talk to them, "Hey, let's go out for coffee. Let's get you out of, you know, being alone," or however that may look. And so, you know, those are kind of, I guess, tools in a sense that we have within our body. You know, making sure that they're not alone. That they know that they have people that they can talk to. And then having, with a guy that I helped walk through this a couple years ago, we met every week and just kind of talked about, "Okay, where you're at? How are you handling this?" And so, that was just kind of what we did as he walked through that process. And then, you know, resources; there's like, Covenant Eyes on the internet that you can, I'm not sure how much it costs. But you purchase it or whatever, and then you have it put on all your phones. He can, you know, if it's the guy or lady, whoever's struggling with it, then they'll have an accountability person that has access. So, the Covenant Eyes will send that person a report every week and says, "Hey, they've looked at this many sites," or whatever it may be. And so those are some resources that I guess that I know of.

Ben Cline
That's great. Thank you, Jonathan. It's interesting being a, you know, a smaller congregation. Being a smaller church, a lot of times there are not the resources, you know, to be a part of as a church together. And so, you know, the approach that we take, the approach that I personally take is similar to yours Jonathan. I think that when those issues come up, then we can deal with them. You know, there's a thing that has to happen in a person's heart, you know, to be convicted by the Holy Spirit, to be ready to deal with those things. But one of the things that I really stand, you know, very firmly on, is as we are teaching through the chapters and the verses and the books of scripture, that we don't leave those issues behind. You know, we've been in the book of Acts, and I think that my church probably is like, "when are we gonna get done with the book of Acts?" Cause it's one of the longest books in the Bible. But, you know, when we came across chapter 15, you know, they're at the Jerusalem Council and there's people who are bringing in issues that are non-salvation issues and saying that they're required to be saved. Well, they convene together and they make this decision that there are a few things that they biblically want to place on the gentile believers. You know, they say, "these are things that you need to follow, because these are things that are clearly covered in scripture." And in verse 20 it says, "but we write to them that they may abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and what is strangled from blood." So these are the things that they said to the gentile believers, "These are the things you need to abstain from." And you notice that the word fornication is in there. You know, this would include lustfully looking at a woman. This would include inappropriate relationships. This would include pornography, and different things like that. And so, you know, we run across those situations that are recorded in the pages of scripture. And we make sure that we clearly teach them as we're facing them, through those verses and through that teaching. And then, you know, the other thing too, is that I am so thankful for other congregations in this valley. Other ministries that have the resources to be able to offer things like, you know, Celebrate Recovery. And, you know, those are things that we can encourage our people to be a part of and to take part in, if they are struggling with things like pornography. And so yeah, that's kind of where we are.

Gary Schick
And I'm glad this question comes up, because it's a problem. It's a problem in our culture. I mean, there was a time, you know, at least when I was a kid, I found out that you guys are a bit younger than me. But when I was a kid, you know, like you might, somebody found a magazine in a trash can or something. Today, it's right there on everybody's phone if you go looking for it. And a lot of people do. And as pointed out, it used to be considered kind of a men's problem, because men are more visually wired. You know, we're attracted to our eventual spouses initially, visually, and then we get to know them. Thankfully women, I think, are a little bit more emotionally wired. But regardless, women are becoming addicted as well today. And so, in one sense it is as old as time. I don't think we really know for sure which is the oldest book in the Bible, but I've heard it speculated that it's Job, because of the ancient language. Of course, it's poetry, which often uses ancient language. Maybe the oldest book in the Bible. And Job himself said, "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look at a young woman lustfully." So there it is. So, Job knew what the lust of the eyes was. John writes about, you know, the lust of the eyes. Paul warns Timothy, "treat the young women as sisters, the older women as mothers, the older men as fathers, younger men as brothers." In other words, you know, "here's healthy relationships for you Timothy as a young single person in ministry." And by the way, people in ministry struggle with this too. I think statistically, it's kind of flat; everybody. You know, it's one of those things. There's a natural element to it, the natural element of attraction, but then it's taken to a place where it shouldn't go. You know, your eyes should only be for your spouse in those intimate ways. And that's what scripture calls us to, that private place of husband and wife. So, all of that said, you know, what are the resources? In ministry, I remember the first time that---and you know, by the way, I think you put it well in terms of, how does this change happen? Somebody asked me once, "how many counselors or psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?" Do you guys know? "Only one, but the light bulb has to want to change." And that's a problem, not only with this addiction, but any addiction or any sin really. People, you know, can come; I've had on a few occasions, a guy will come to me. Often, it's because his wife is bringing him to me. And right there in a sense is, "yes, this is right, it's good, there's a problem," but how unfortunate that it's his wife bringing him. Because until he gets to that place that he says, "I want change," he's not gonna. It's gonna remain the private sin. I mean, you can have all the accountability out there, but you still have to make yourself accountable to it. That said, if you are struggling, and a lot are; and you know, I guess one of the good things is, it used to be all sort of hush, hush, covered up. It's so blatant and so out there in our society, it's not even such a big deal anymore. Please, go talk to your pastor about it, and make yourself accountable. And as you've pointed out, you know, in our smaller churches, what's the resource? Well, we as pastors are; we and our wives. And so, you know, I've had the situation more than once. Where a guy will come to me struggling in some way, or even a younger person, and then you know, my wife will be that resource for the wife. But in terms of resources, I think Jonathan put it well. I know there's a ton of resources on the internet. There's Covenant Eyes; there are apps you can put on your phone, and really you need to go there because that's probably, in this day and age where people are getting this stuff. They're getting it electronically, so you probably need some electronic solutions. I think you need to connect somewhere for accountability, whether it's with your pastor, another older, wiser Christian. A place like Celebrate Recovery is great, because there you're probably gonna get connected with somebody else who's somewhere along the same road you are. You know, whether it's Celebrate Recovery, that deals with all the addictions: sexual addictions, alcohol addictions, drug addictions. And they'll probably connect you up with somebody else who's on that same path, who's a little further down the road, that you can be accountable to, who will understand your struggles. I think that's helpful too. Somebody who gets where you're at. Also, there's some great reading resources. I remember, you know, the first time somebody came to me. I just kind of scratched my head and went looking at the Christian bookstore. And I think back when this issue began to become an issue, the only book out there was called Every Man's Battle by Steve Arterburn. And what's kind of neat about that book is, there is also a section at the end of each chapter for the wife. Or was it Arterburn who wrote that? I can't remember for sure, but I know that, you know, there was an author who wrote it, and I think he had struggled with it. And so he's telling his story of how he got out of it. So it may or may not have been Steve Arterburn, I don't know, but I know it's connected with his line of books. But then there's kind of the woman's response. And again, yes, today it's both a men's and women's issue. But probably the, you know, the larger percentage still is men because of how we're more visually wired. And so the woman talking about, you know, how she feels the betrayal she feels and coming to terms and helping her husband work through it. And then I remember, I had a youth pastor at one time, and he came scratching my head and said, "Hey, we got one in our youth." And so there's also Every Young Man's Battle out there, which I think is again, by the same author, but it's more focused for teenagers. The only struggle I had with that book, you know, because I had a guy coming to me, and so I began to read it. And it had kind of a lot of, you know, like "stories in terms of," and "here's how this happened in my life and where it went." And it's like, boy, that left some images in my mind just reading his stories. You know, like, I don't think I want that necessarily. So a third book that I came to along the way in ministry, um, what was it called? It was called Finely Free Fighting for Purity With the Power of Grace by Heath Lambert. And that was a great book, in the sense that it dealt with the issue without all the stories that just sort of create more images in the mind. And actually, that book kind of, even though it was addressed to that issue, I thought it really dealt well with probably almost any addiction in terms of dealing with it. With accountability and the power of the Holy Spirit and God's grace. And again, it's author was a person who had walked the road, you know? They weren't just coming at it from an aspect of this, a problem in our society or an interest in it, or whatever. It's, "I've been there. I've been right where you're at. If you're out there dealing with this, here's where I was and here's where the Lord has brought." And so, I think those are all helpful. But the one thing, you know, just to kind of finish up is, it's a strange thing. Even though it's sort of, it's even joked about like in sitcoms, you know? Pornography, as if that was no big deal, even though it destroys marriages. I've seen marriages destroyed. I've heard that it leads to impotency interestingly. I mean, just all kinds of problems. Nevertheless, it's a very private sin. People, you know, they don't want to admit to it. They don't want to talk about it. Well, if you're there, if you're struggling or if you've got a spouse or loved one who's struggling....Satan loves it when we try to deal with our own problems by ourselves in the dark, because that's where he can surround us and keep us captive. Get with somebody who you can open up to and really get on the path to freedom.

What Does Your Enneagram Mean With Jesus? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Schick, Ben Cline, and Jonathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick
So great to be with you guys, and today we're digging into something that I don't know if any of us had heard of before, but we've done a little digging and thankful these guys actually dug a little deeper than I did today. So I'm probably gonna let you guys carry a lot of it. You know, I think that this is probably a timely topic because, as we've kind of learned a little bit about it, apparently this is not something new. And yet it's gaining traction in the culture and in the church. And so, our listeners are probably going, "So, what is it?" Okay, so here's the email I got, it's called, "What does your Enneagram mean with Jesus? Would your Ask the Pastor team like to tackle the subject of Enneagrams? What is an Enneagram? Is this some new thing? Is it biblically sound? And anything else you might want to say about it." So, Jonathan, what would you like to say about it?

Jonathan Hernandez
Well, I guess I haven't really heard much about it coming into, you know, getting our email. So I had to do some research to see what it was all about. And so, some of the origins, I guess, and it was tough....

Gary Schick
Could you tell us what it is? Just so our listeners know.

Jonathan Hernandez
So, Enneagram is, I would guess I would say: a personality type test and there's nine points inside of a circle, and you're one of those nine points. I can't think of all of them right off the top of my head. But you can become stronger in each of those points as you balance yourself, I guess, between the nine points somehow. And so it was just kind of a lot of, a personality test and the sort. And so, looking back at some of the origins or the history of it. There's a guy named Oscar Ichazo and he was trying to, or I guess he had a school of some sort and they were praying, I guess, I don't know what you wanna call it. They were doing something in their prayer circles. And so, he decided that he wanted to go on a, sort of like a seven day divine coma. And he was essentially in a hallucinogenic place, cause they had taken some sort of drug I guess. And he said that during those seven days, this angel came to him and exposed Oscar to 108 different Enneagrams. And so this angel comes and he gives him these 108 and what we call now the Enneagram. And so that was kind of odd, I guess. I would say this, hearing these origins, I would say that it's a dangerous place to step into.

Gary Schick
It's not Christian prayer really.

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, especially if you're using drugs to get to a place to have spiritual encounters, I guess. So he, you know, revealed that information, and you can see there's some videos on YouTube of Oscar Ichazo. Actually, I think it was him that was kind of talking about how these things came about. Do we believe that that could truly happen? He could hear from an angel and give him things? Well, probably; but what is the angel that he's hearing from? Right? Like I would say that he's probably hearing from a fallen angel here. And Ichazo, he admits to having contact with spirits, including an angel called Meditron. He claims his group was guided by an interior master. To me, this sounds a lot like new age. And he talks about having a spirit guide or a higher authority often. He had a disciple, I guess, named Claudio Naranjo, and Claudio came up with the actual types that we see now in the Enneagram. And he said that he gained these through automatic writing. I don't know if you guys have heard of automatic writing, which is also demonic. So, I guess if our listeners haven't heard of what an automatic writing is, so basically he gets a piece of paper and a pen out and then he hands his body over to a spirit, and his hand can be used to write whatever the spirit wants to write, I guess. I would say that's pretty demonic. And so, like, a lot of these things is what I was seeing as I was doing research on the origins of what came up. Most of the videos I had seen didn't talk in good light about the Enneagram. So, it's a whole thing about finding your true self and exposing your false self. You could go down the path like this, new age I guess, really that's how it sounds to me; a lot of new age. We see people connect with this so much, because I think we wanna know who we are, you know? We wanna know, "what is our purpose?" And so, having this program or this personality test, I guess, that is....because when you take it, it really does align you with who you seem to be. You know, I'm more of an introvert. I wanna be a peacemaker and I would imagine if I were to take this test, peacemaker is one of the nine. And I would imagine that's probably where I would land. And as I talked to friends, they would say, "Hey, I was a five," or "I was a four." And then I'm like, "Yeah, that's who you kind of are, you know, when I talk to you." And so, how you know that this test puts them in line with that. And I think that really speaks to us, that we wanna know who we are. We wanna know how we can become better. And this thing, saying that you expose your false self, we would all like to have our false self exposed and really step into who God has created us to be.

Jonathan Hernandez
And this test really helps you step into who this test wants you to be, I guess. And so as I, you know, as I look through some of that, I think of Proverbs 20 and it says, "the purpose in a man's heart is like deep water, but a man of understanding will draw it out." Who is the man of understanding? That would be the man who fears God. And I think for us, if we wanna know who we truly are, it comes down to knowing God. And if we know God, He who knows us better than anybody else right? I think we'll know who we are through Christ and be able to step into where God has us. And so I would say, do we need an Enneagram? I would say: No! Jesus didn't need one. We don't see Him walking around saying, "Oh, I was a four," or "I was eight." You know, we don't see Him talking about those. The disciples, you know, they didn't need one. We don't see the apostle Paul talking about it at all. I think the Bible gives us everything that we need. And I would encourage you, if you're wanting to know who you are, find out who Jesus is. You know, and really connect to God, and allow God to give you who you truly are. We don't need the Enneagram to be holy. The Bible gives us everything that we need for life and godliness. So that's where I would sit.

Ben Cline
Yeah, thanks Jonathan, I totally agree. You know, doing research about something like this is very telling of where things come up. And I appreciate that you talked about the spiritual side of this, the spiritual origins of it. Because, you know, both of those guys that you talked about, Ichazo and Naranjo, they were occultists. And, you know, this is a dangerous source for us to use as believers to try to figure out who we are. You know, it is something that we have to be talking about today because it's something that is becoming more and more popular. You know, starting in 2016 and 2017, Christian, you know, publishing houses, started publishing books about the Enneagram. And it's becoming more and more prevalent and more and more books are coming out in favor of the Enneagram being used in evangelical circles. And so we have to be really careful. One of the scriptures that I was drawn to, as I was thinking about this is 1 John 4. And I just wanna read these six verses real quick. It says, "beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is already in the world. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error." And so I think that those are really good, you know, guiding principle verses when we talk about things like the Enneagram. Jonathan, you talked a lot about the origins of it and, you know, there's a few questions out there about it. Number one is, "well, it's just a personality test, right?" If you do a little bit of research on this, there's other personality tests out there that are really popular. And there's, you know, this ebb and flow of popular personality tests that are out there, but all those personality tests are based in research. The thing that's different about the Enneagram, is that it's based out of these, you know, occultic origins and it's not research based. And so, then you come across the question, you know, and even within evangelical circles, there's people who have done this test and say, "well, it really works for me." And so you come across those people and it says, "Well, that Enneagram describes me perfectly, so how could it be dangerous? How could it be wrong?" And, you know, one of the things that I was listening to, it was a podcast where a woman named, Marcia Montenegro, she was speaking about this. And she's really a good resource for, you know, having a biblical view of the Enneagram, and some other things as well. But before she became a Christian, she was a professional astrologist. And, you know, the example that she uses is, she says, "I had clients as an astrologist that I drew up, you know, astrology charts for. And they looked at those and they said, 'that describes me perfectly." And she said, "So, you know, we just have to understand that the reason why we look at things like this and think that they're good, that they're working for us is because as human beings, we search for patterns in everything. And, you know, if we see those ties, we're making those ties because we're searching for those patterns." But the question that really remains for us in thinking about things like the Enneagram is, you know, where is it focused, and what does it make me focus on? The danger, I think, in the Enneagram is that it doesn't make you focus on Christ, it makes you focus on self. And that can be, you know, truly said of a lot of personality tests. Like, they're really trying to help you understand who you are better. But that's really not where our identity is. Our identity is in Christ Jesus as believers. So we need to just be careful. I mean, you know, thinking back to 1 John 4, that's really what it's telling us; is to be cognizant of what is going on around us and is it backed by scripture? Or is it not backed by scripture? Is it backed by us focusing on Jesus Christ? Or is it backed by us focusing on ourselves? And so I think those are some questions that we have to to think about.

Gary Schick
Good stuff guys. Yeah, when I first looked at this, that was my first thought was, you know, some kind of a personality thing. Which, personality tests can be helpful. They can help you understand your set of strengths and weaknesses. I mean, Solomon and Proverbs talked about different kinds of personalities a little bit; 500 years before Christ, the Greeks. That's kind of where my head went with this. I kind of came up with four different personality types: the choleric (kind of a leader), the phlegmatic, the sanguine, the melancholic. And each of those personality types, having strengths and weaknesses and, you know, the only perfect all good personality being Jesus. And so, what can be helpful about those things is, we all kind of have a hardwired personality and however you label it, knowing your strengths and weaknesses and identifying, you know, make your strength stronger and identify your sinful tendencies; and Lord help me work on those. The problem with the Enneagram, as you guys have both so well pointed out is, this isn't going back through time or legitimate psychology in terms of research and looking at how different personalities work. I mean, the soul is not like other parts of our body. It doesn't have these different parts. And so, there's probably a million ways that you can kind of do models of the human personality. The problem with this one is it's occult origins. And so it's kind of a good idea taken in a bad direction. You know, it's kind of like, sorry to offend some of our listeners, but it's kind of like when the Mormons come along to you and say, "Well, you know, the Bible is God's word, and we also have, 'well, you know, Paul said very clearly, if even an angel of light proclaims to you another gospel, let him be a curse." And we know who that other angel of light was that showed up to Joseph Smith; he was Satan. We know who the angel "Gabriel" was that showed up with a very different gospel to Muhammad; he was Satan. And how do we know this? Well, their gospels do not match the gospel in scripture at all. They are works related gospels, working your way. Always Satan wants us, it's like with every sin, he wants us to work our way there; and you fail. And yeah, we do fail. Only Jesus can get us to heaven, and only Jesus is the perfect personality. And in terms of drawing on sources that are so heavily influenced by occultism, it's worrisome to me. You know, just as we were talking, Isaiah 8:19-20 comes to mind, which in the English Standard Version says, "And when they say to you, 'inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,' should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?" And then verse 20, "to the teaching and to the testimony! If they will not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." So, you know, and just to balance this a little bit, you know, one of my seminary professors pointed out: all truth is God's truth. Unbelievers can often---and often do---discover things that are part of God's truth. God created this world. Everything that the scientific world legitimately gets right in their study of the natural world, they're studying part of God's truth. So, you know, I have no problem partaking of human medicine, you know? Even though, "this medication wasn't discovered by a Bible scholar." Well, you know, maybe not, but it was discovered by somebody who was doing their diligence to study God's creation and discovered this. That's legitimate. But when it's coming to you from an occult source, from a demonic source, it's coming from the wrong direction, and it's gonna take you in the wrong direction. And, you know, there is this tendency, even without the occult involvement, where our world gets about as wide as our own belly buttons. We just become so focused on ourselves. And that would be another part of the dangerous side of this. And so, I think we come together and agree. Are there some legitimate personality tests out there that can be helpful with you and, you know, even in your relationships with others? Absolutely. But I wouldn't go to the Enneagram for any of that. And the other is, you know, keeping ourselves rooted in God's word as we try, you know, our goal is to grow---not just as a person to become the best that I can be---but to be who Jesus died for me to be. Your best self in Christ!

How Should We View Social Media As Christians? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Gary Schick, Ben Cline, and Jonathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick
So today's question, I'll kind of read it and then I'll explain it. It says, "Would your team like to tackle this article and help our listeners develop safeguards for their own personal use of social media? How should we view the phenomenon of social media?" So it was a Christianity Today article about a pastor. I think he was doing something called direct texting, and I don't know, is that even different than just regular texting? I'm not media savvy enough to know. But basically it was some conversation, and his wife knew about it, others knew about it and seemed to be okay with it. But at some point, it seemed to cross some kind of a line and he is now out of ministry. Which is a sad, always a sad thing to see a brother in Christ fall in a way that. And we've, boy, I've been hearing about it, really, my whole adult life, how ministers will fill in different ways. But the broader question is: Hey, all of us are involved in social media somehow. You know, whether it's through our computers or our phones, you know, if we have a Facebook page or something (more often than not, our churches have pages). It is so easy to communicate, and so easy to express ourselves. And there are so many ways we can connect, which is a good thing, but we can also get into trouble. You know, so how do we view it? And what safeguards should we set? Jonathan, what are your thoughts?

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, for sure. With social media really dominating our way of communication, I guess nowadays, we definitely need to take a step back and say, "Okay, these are the guardrails, the safeguards that I'll have in place as I communicate." I think, if we look in scripture, in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 it says, "Abstain from every form of evil." Or in the King James it says, "Abstain from all appearances of evil." And so how do we look at that and say, "Okay, as I interact on social media, I need to make sure that I'm living to the standard of what Christ set for us." And so, you know, what are we looking at? What are we, I guess, viewing as we're on those things? Having safeguards in place like: okay, if I notice anything that would be revealing of a lady, I'm not gonna look at those things. You know, we're friends with so many people on social media. I looked the other day and I'm friends with like, 1,100 people, or something like that. And how many of those people do I actually even know? And I'm just sitting here accepting friend requests from everybody, and not really looking to see, "who are these people?" And then, you know, you accept somebody and then, you know, a few days later you get a private message from them. And you know, all kinds of different things can be from that. And so we need to guard, I guess in that too, like, who are we friend requesting? You know, who are we allowing to become friends of ours on social media? I know I have a friend that his thought is always, "Well, if I don't accept them, how are they gonna hear the gospel?" And you know, I think about that; that's a good thought to have. But we also have to be cautious in how that looks, or how that goes. You know, I can't accept everybody, because some of these ladies that are on there, shouldn't be on my profile. So, that way I don't have to worry about looking at what they're posting, you know? So having those safeguards, you know, as a man, for those things. Another safeguard is, my wife has every password of mine. She knows every one of my social medias that I have---the passwords to those. She has access to my phone. Anytime she says, "Hey, let me look at your phone," you know, I have no problem handing it over. So I think having those safeguards in place, you know, as a husband and wife we know what our spouses are doing on social media. And we're okay with them looking at our phones whenever they feel that they need to. As a leader, I think, the Bible says that we'll be held at a higher standard, you know? So that also goes for us when we're on social media. You know, just like this pastor who had gotten in trouble, you know? His wife knew about the messages, the lady's husband knew about the messages, and they all felt like---I'm guessing we're just reading into the story. We're guessing that they're okay with the texting back and forth between those two, but at some point, where did it go? Um, too far. And so we have to know, what are our boundaries in that? Is my communication with another female, that's not my wife, or my mom or sister, you know, they can't go to a certain level of intimacy. They have to stay on that broad, you know, that baseline communication. And so, I think having some of those in place and knowing, "Okay, this is what I have in place, and I won't steer from that path. I'm not gonna test the boundaries." Cause I think we like to do that is, "If I get this close to the cliff without falling off, I'm okay." And no, we don't need to be that close. We need to have the boundary before the cliff, you know? So that way, we're not tempted to look over. And so I think those are kind of, you know, for me, my boundaries. I would probably include more stuff, but I just think, kind of that base thing of my communication. You know, I'm not communicating with women without my wife knowing about it. If I text somebody she knows that, "Hey, I texted this lady, this is the reason why I texted her." And so that way she knows, and she hears what I'm talking about.

Ben Cline
Yeah. Thank you Jonathan. I, you know, just echo a lot of the things that you said. I was just thinking, as you were talking too, that our lives have changed so much in the past 15 years, right? You know, I remember getting, and this was a long time ago, just to give you a hint of how old I am. But this was a long time ago that I remember getting my first friend request, which was over email for this new thing called Facebook. And it was from a family member, so I contacted her and I was like, "What is this?" And, you know, I just remember, and now our lives are so much revolving around the internet and, you know, access to and communicating so easily with other people on all these different apps. And, you know, it's just definitely something that we need to have a plan in place for. And I like the word that you used Jonathan: boundaries, because I think that that's really what it all comes down to. Is that you might be in a situation where you are married, right? And so you can set up those boundaries with your spouse. And you can say, "You know, I'm not gonna have that kind of interaction with somebody else without you having access to what's happening." And then also, the boundaries go further beyond that. Like you were saying, Jonathan: that you don't wanna walk right up to the edge of the cliff, just because it's the edge of the cliff and you're allowed to do that. But you set those boundaries back further. And there's a great passage, in Proverbs 4:23 it says, "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life." You know, and there's a bunch of other verses that are surrounding that, that are talking about what it looks like as a follower of God, as a believer in God. To follow after the path that He has laid out before us, and it's not a path of the world, it's a path of righteousness. And so, those boundaries that we set are boundaries that need to reflect that righteousness that God wants us to live in. And you also brought up 1 Thessalonians 5:22. I think when situations like this come up that, you know, we read about in the article, that was brought up to us; that that's one of the first thoughts that comes to mind as we're thinking about scripture. Is, you know, that we need to, "Abstain from all appearances of evil," because our intentions matter. And I think looking at this particular situation, that there were maybe not any ill intentions, but the truth of the matter is that appearances matter too. And so, and the reason why, is because there's a world who's looking on, and they need to be viewing, you know, Christ-like characteristics within us. And then, another thing that I was thinking about too is, you know, that we need to remember all of the things that Christ has done for us. In 1 Peter 2, just a few verses in here, it says, "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps. Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth. And while being reviled, He did not revile in return while suffering. He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting himself to Him who judges righteously. And He himself bore our sins and His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness for by His wounds, you were healed." And then verse 25 is so true about us. It says, "For you are continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls." And, you know, what powerful words I think those are, for us as believers. And really just, you know, if you're wondering how to handle situations in social media, I say, just go back to those two words: boundaries and righteousness. And those are some good guidelines.

Gary Schick
Right. Good stuff, Ben and Jonathan, you know, it is kind of an interesting thing. The internet, it's a new thing in the world, but there's no new sins. And so the internet is an opportunity, I think for, there's a lot of great ministry opportunity there to share the word of Christ. But there's also a lot of opportunity there to get into trouble. You know, I think I heard another pastor talking and I think he said this was a Woody Allen quote. I don't know, I don't follow Woody Allen at all, but I think it's a good quote. Something to the effect that people are themselves, only more so. And I think that is true when people get on social media. I think they're themselves, only more so. I think there's a sense in which, in the privacy of your own home or whatever, you just kind of feel comfortable. Which is good, but you can also kind of let some boundaries or barriers down. They could lead in some negative directions and, you know, without getting into the article that Russ shared with us, you know, it was one of those kinda difficult situations. It wasn't that a sin had specifically been committed, and yet it had drifted to a place where it just wasn't a good situation. And so, I think you guys both had some great scriptures there. Another one that came to my mind is Ephesians 5:3, "But among you, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or of any kind of impurity or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." So, you know, and I think there's so many ways that people can get into trouble on the internet. I mean, one is viewing inappropriate things. And so, you know, the words of Job kind of come to my mind, you know? "I set a guard over my eyes lest I should look at a woman lustfully." And so, you know, clear back in the Old Testament, Job was already uttering the wisdom of Jesus. You know, basically, watch your eyes. And of course, the internet is a very visual place, so that's one safeguard to have in mind. Another, I think, important safeguard is, putting a guard over our mouths. You know, James talks about the tongue. And not only in this situation, there was some kind of texting going on that would not quit, and wasn't going in a good direction. But Christians do not always reflect Jesus well on Facebook and other places on the internet. I mean, who was it? A guy I used to listen to on the radio, he'd talk about angry evangelicals. And you know, that is not a phrase that should exist. Evangelical means good news. We are proclaimers of the news of Christ. So how is it that we have become, in the world, really viewed over and over again for what we're against instead of the Jesus we're for? So anyway, I just jotted down three things that I think are helpful. Number one: would I want everyone to see this? Would I feel comfortable with everybody seeing either what I'm seeing or what I'm writing or what I'm seeing, you know? Is this open to the world? Because guess what, and this is the trick, and this is where I think social media and the internet can operate, not only is a good thing where it can be ministry, but it also can be one of Satan's lies. And that is that old lie, "Well, nobody will know. Nobody will see." No, good grief, everything you put on the internet's there forever. And first of all, if you wouldn't want everybody to be aware of it, you shouldn't be doing it anyway. That there you've crossed that line of sin. But also you've believed a lie, because at some point, everything you've put out there is likely to be open to the world. And so, you know, would I want everybody to see this? Both as a safeguard to say, "Well, you know, no. Then I probably shouldn't be putting it up there." And guess what, at some point they probably will. Also, I think it's a good question to ask ourselves, "How much time am I spending here?" You know, some of these things are really neither good nor bad, but they can sort of become all consuming. And I don't know, maybe we're getting used to it now, and we're starting to level out. But I remember when I was, you're talking about your first friend on Facebook, I remember when I was trying to learn how to use Facebook. And it just felt like it was like, taking up, you know, I would get home from my day and I would, "What are you doing? He's on Facebook." I was just trying to learn the stupid thing, you know? And early on, I was like, "I need to back away from this." And I kind of barely go on there at all anymore. I'm trying to wish people happy birthday, that's about it. But for a lot of people, it can just kind of become all. And so, maybe no sin is happening, but if it's dominating your life, if it's taking you away from the face to face in touch relationships with people right in front of you, that's not healthy. And I think this is the big one over all of it, "Am I bringing glory to Jesus? Does this glorify Jesus Christ? Am I lifting up the name of Jesus? Or am I getting caught up in all these arguments about culture or politics or whatever it is?" And you might have some really great views and some good points, but honest at the end of the day, if you haven't directed people toward Jesus, what good is it gonna be a thousand years from now? You know, I mean, when we direct people to Jesus, that could be good a thousand years from now, cause they could be a thousand years in eternity with Him versus without Him. I mean, you could be right in everything you're saying and doing, but if you're not pointing people to Jesus, what is it all about in the end? And I guess the counter question is, "Are we distracting from Jesus? Are we becoming known for something else? Are we, as evangelicals, known for anything but the gospel?" Which is what our name is, you know? Evangelical comes from the Greek εὐαγγέλιον; good news gospel. If we're about, I'm not saying that other things aren't important that we shouldn't be working toward a lot of things, but the good news of Jesus Christ needs to be front and center and not detracted from us at all.

What Are Some Of The Indications That Something Is God's Will? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Mike Clement and David Clement.

Mike Clement
All right, so this is a family thing we've got going here tonight. And tonight in church, we actually touched on the whole idea of God's will. When I was a teenager, that was a big thing. We were all wondering what God's will was for our life. And we talked a little bit about it from the word, but I'd like to ask you guys. And I'm gonna start with you, Ariel. What were some of the indications to you, that something was God's will for you or was it God's will for you?

Ariel Clement
First of all, when I went away to college (at that time a lot of people sent their kids to a Christian college to find a mate), and I was not interested in finding a fellow because I had seven brothers and I had all kinds of male companionship; sometimes more than I wanted. And so I was not interested in finding a man to fulfill me at that particular point in time. But my parents had prayed for us as kids that we would marry godly, either men or women, depending on whether what was appropriate there. And I personally hadn't thought a lot about it, but I did because my parents had been so fervent in that. I had prayed also that God would provide for me a special person, but I was not looking for a person. And God did provide in my husband while we were in college. God provided a godly man for me to help me in life and to complete me. The areas that I am weak in, God has him very strong in. And so, I think that if we are willing to follow God and that is our desire, that God will bring people and situations into our life. So that we know that we are doing what He wants us to do.

Mike Clement
Okay. Very good. Did you have a checklist? I mean like in even an unofficial checklist?

David Clement
Bald. Overweight?

Mike Clement
Wow. It was pretty---sorry listeners, you can't see what I look like.

Ariel Clement
My main concern was that he would love the Lord and that he would desire to serve God in whatever God wanted for him. And that he would be someone who was a hard worker and would do what he needed to do so that God would be able to use him.

Mike Clement
You know, I don't think that's a bad thing. I've heard of people that had a big checklist for, "Oh, the person I have to marry needs to be this, that, and the other thing." And if somebody has a checklist like that, there's two things that they ought to do. One is they ought to see if the things that they're expecting are biblical. That really ought to be the main thing on your checklist, you know? Am I wanting what God wants? And another thing would be, do you measure up in those areas? It's one thing to want somebody who is this, that, or the other thing, but are you there? I remember hearing on a message that Howard Hendricks preached on. He's talking to some fella, and he had this great big, long list and he asked the guy, "How many of those things on your list are true in your life?" And he is like, "Well, I had to start scratching some things off." Anyway, so Dave, what about you? How have you discovered God's will for your life?

David Clement
Well again, that's something that people oftentimes ask and desire to know. I think the biggest thing about knowing God's will for our life is: first of all, we need to know God. And we need to have a desire to know Him more. And then we need to ask God to reveal these things to us. I don't think it's as hard as some people like to make it feel. I know when I was younger, I used to think, "Oh, this is just this magical thing that's out there and you’ve got to search for it. And you'll never know if you really have it or not." It's just this magical thing. But what I found in my life at least, was that it wasn't that difficult, as I was going through life doing what was there; God revealed Himself to me. And I think that that's the key, I think part of that is realizing what God has gifted you in. You know, God's gifted, and that's something that I'm walking through with my daughter right now. And she's just graduated high school and just, "Look, your taking some of the things that God has gifted you and some of the things that you get pleasure from and being simple about it." You know, again God doesn't want to punish us by forcing us to do His will, you know? And God's will isn't something that we're just gonna hate. That's not necessarily what's there. Oftentimes God, like you mentioned tonight, He gave us these talents and abilities from before we were born. Knowing what He had planned for us in the future. And so, now there's always room for growth, you know? Just because God's challenged you in this one way, it doesn't mean you don't have anything that you have to work on for the rest of your life, to accomplish His will. That's not true. We do have to strive for other aspects of it, but a lot of times, God, at least I've found in my life is, that God will just delight me in the things that He is bringing me to. And I just follow Him. And the scripture says, "Take delight in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart." And, you know, when we are doing what He asked us to do, and when we are following Him, then He reveals His will to us.

Mike Clement
Yeah. The passage says, "To make God known in your ways, and in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will give you the desires of your heart." And there's a whole explanation of that. The passage that I used tonight in church was Ephesians 2:10, and most of us know Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace, you have saved through faith---and that not of yourselves, that is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast," which is a reminder to us that you cannot earn your salvation. You could never be good enough, you could never change enough. You can't undo anything that you've already done. It's not possible to earn God's forgiveness, but it goes on to say, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." And so it goes on to say, "On the one hand, you're not saved by works, but you're saved under good works." There are things that God intended for your life, and in fact, He created you in such a way that you could do what He wants you to do. One way to discern God's will for your life is, "Is this something I can do?" Now, it may be something that you don't like to do. It may be something that you need to learn how to do better. But if something is not possible for you to do, you don't have to worry about that. The Christian life, I should add, is not possible to live in the power of the flesh. It is not possible to live the way God wants us to live just by our own means and our own ability. But He's given the believer the Holy Spirit dwelling within, to empower us. So we can live the Christian life the way God wants us to live. "But even before," this verse says, "Even before you were born, you were His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Which He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." God had a plan for your life. And so, the verse tells us that God does have a plan for our life. And the verse goes on to tell us that whatever that plan is, that we're already equipped. We have the tools that are necessary to be able to learn to do that. There's some things that I enjoy that I'm not very good at. You know, I'd like to play basketball, some kinds of basketball with the teens at camp and different things. I am never gonna be a basketball player. If I devoted my whole life to being a basketball player, I would've been a miserable failure, and been miserable at it. There's actually a Christian book that was written a number of years ago. And the fellow, in His book, said that God's will is fluid. It's not specific. God's will for you isn't necessarily one thing or another, there are a number of options you can choose out of all those options and be perfectly in God's will. And what was interesting, was he started using Bible characters and he said "Like Isaiah. He didn't have to be a prophet. He could have done something else." Well, I think the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I think Isaiah had to be a prophet. Apostle Paul said, "Woe is me if I preach not the gospel." And now, there may be some flexibility within God's will, but I don't think it's a toss up. I believe that He has a perfect will. Now I do believe that in order for us to understand His will for our life, we need to want to do it.

David Clement
Well, I think that's something that's very key, you know? And, you know, people often think of God's will, as far as it comes to a mate people. And that's one thing that I thought was just cool here recently, just talking to one of the people in our church. Obviously, and mom talked about it just a little bit ago with the idea of sending your kids off to school to find a mate. And, you know, find a Christian just to find a Christian mate. And these folks in our church, they prayed about where to send their kids, because they knew that that was a possibility. The interesting thing is, all three of their kids went to school and none of them found their godly mate at school. They all found them. They found godly mates, but not at school. You know, but it was just a reminder to me of being where God wants you to be when God wants you to be there. One of them, one of the young ladies was up at camp. She was just at a camp retreat, and there was a young man there all the way from the state of California that she would've never met probably any other way. However, she was where God wanted her to be. And he was where God wanted him to be. And he wasn't there to have fun, he was there to work. He was there working with his family. And here, God had brought both of them, following the Lord, and God had brought both of them together. But the same is true in every aspect, not just that one, you know? I know that I was a pastor for a while, an interim pastor in a church here in town for a while. And I never really thought myself as being a pastor before. You know, again, I didn't really see myself gifted in that area. Didn't really see myself along those lines of preaching. But the more that God, I considered myself a servant. God really, when I do things for people, I find the most pleasure in helping people. And it's just for bringing me the most pleasure in my life, is when I'm able to help people. And so, you know, whether it's at work and doing a service for people at work. I own my own business now, and I get pleasure in that. But God worked on my heart when it came to taking this position as the interim pastor. And as I thought, "No, no, no, I'm not a preacher. I'm not a speaker. I'm not any of these other things." God said, "No, but these people need to see somebody." And I realized that I could serve people and still get great pleasure and joy out of it. Even though it was serving in a way that I wasn't comfortable doing. And so, my spiritual gift, if you wanna call it that, still was in play there. It wasn't that I was an evangelist. It wasn't that I was a great speaker or anything else. But God touched my heart through the spiritual gift that these people need somebody. And it was a way that I was able to serve the Lord by realizing, "Yeah, the Lord had gifted me." Not necessarily in that. And that's a whole other story about a pastor's responsibilities and his jobs. But in all reality, speaking from the pulpit is one of his least responsibilities.

Does God Knowing The Future Negate Our Free Will? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Gary Schick and Johnathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick

All right. Well, our question for today is, "Does God knowing the future, negate our free will? Do we have a free will? What is the extent of that will?" Well, I can freely say I have no choice, but...actually, Jonathan, would you get us started on, kind of a tough question? Where do free will and predestination meet? Or do they?

Jonathan Hernandez

Yeah, definitely. So this question definitely could be a four or five episode type of question. You know, we could really dive into a lot of theology, I guess, and debates and different things with this. You know, free will, predestination, those type of different things; we could hop into a lot of those. But, you know, I think for me, I think of this question and sometimes I think we want every answer to every single thing. We wanna know God completely, and I think that's a great thing for us to go after, cause we should go after knowing God as much as we can. You know, but I think of things like, "how can God be three in one?" You know, that's a question that I think we can go after forever and not fully, you know; our finite minds can't fully comprehend some of these things and stuff. And so, you know, I think of some of those questions. But you know, I think of 1 Corinthians 10:23, and it says, "you say 'I'm allowed to do anything,' but not everything is good for you. You say 'I'm allowed to do anything,' but not everything is beneficial." You know, we have free will to pick these different things, but how much of it is beneficial for us to actually do? You know, I can freely decide to, you know, do something that's harmful, but is it actually beneficial in the end? You know, when we see this verse it's making it, you know, why it's true that we have the right to do anything we want. The truth is, everything we do is not beneficial for us too. And then, how beneficial is it for us, or for the people that are around us too? You know, I think of that question. Even as in 1 Corinthians 10:23, if we jump to the next verse in 24, it says, "Don't be concerned for your own good, but also the good of others." You know, so I, when we think about free will we have to also think about, "if I have free will to do anything or everything, is it beneficial? Not only to me, but for, you know, the people that are around me. And if it's not beneficial for us, then should we be doing it?" You know? So I look at some of those things. Like I said, we could go for a long time on a lot of these questions. So I think we look at free will and then divine sovereignty. You know, is it human's responsibility and then is it God's responsibility? You know, where is the line, you know, in that. And so I had just a couple verses that we could look at. John 1:12, it says, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God and to those who believe in His name." So we would look at that and we would say, "Is that human responsibility, or is that divine sovereignty?" And based off of what we just read, we'd probably say that's human responsibility. But if we go to the next verse in 13, it says, "Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." We'd look at that, and we'd say that leans more on divine sovereignty. So, you have these two back-to-back verses and one's human responsibility and one's divine sovereignty. And we could actually go to Matthew and we have the same thing in 11:25. And it says, "At that time, Jesus answered and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and the prudent and have revealed them to the babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor the father, anyone knows, except the son. And the one to whom the son wills to reveal Him." We would look at that and we'd say that's divine sovereignty. And then if we jump to the next one, it says, "Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." And we'd say that one's human's responsibility. So, we could go back and forth on this, you know, debate, and I guess, depending on what church you're raised in, you'd have the two different Calvinist thought processes or the median thought processes. And so, that's kind of where I'm sitting. That I'm kind of in the middle on that.

Ben Cline

So you're saying that you're a Calvinist Armenian?

Jonathan Hernandez

Yeah. Somewhere in the middle.

Ben Cline

So, like you said, this is one of those hot questions. And it's a hot question because we don't understand it, and so we debate it a lot. And, you know, thinking of how the question itself was worded. You know, he talks about, or the listener talks about God knowing the future. And I think another way of thinking of God knowing the future; another way to say that is that He's sovereign. That He's sovereign over all things. And what that means is that He has control and He has full understanding over all things. And those are two things that we don't have.

Gary Schick

We are always trying to get them though, aren't we?

Ben Cline

Right. Yeah, we don't have full control, we don't have full understanding over all those things. But in that sovereignty, it's so interesting because, you know, in that sovereignty that God has, He has given us the free will to make choices. And, you know, how does that work exactly? Well, we don't know. It's impossible, I think, for us to fully understand, you know, how those two things intertwine together. But there, I think, are a couple of things from scripture that we do know for sure. One of those things is that God knows all things. I was reading through Psalm 139 and in the first four verses it says, "Oh Lord, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, and are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, behold oh Lord, You know it all." And that Psalm just goes on and talks more and more about the knowledge that God has. He knows everything about us. He knows our future, He knows our past. And, the other thing that we know for sure is that God has given us the ability or the free will to make choices. And we see that even back all the way to the first human beings on earth, right? That God gave them the ability to make choices. And what did they choose? Well, they chose something like you were saying Jonathan, "that was not beneficial." And yeah, it messed a lot of things up. And, you know, I can't blame that on them, because I can't say that, you know, I wouldn't have made the same choice. But, you know, God did give us those choices. But another thing that we know for sure is that we must choose God or be eternally separated from Him. And Romans 3 makes that very clear, like you were talking about with the responsibility that we are accountable for our choices. It says in Romans 3:19 that we are accountable to God. But you know, even though we find difficulty in trying to understand this, I think that there's a couple of warnings in this first of all. You know, one is that there are a couple of extremes that people take. One is: the extreme of emphasizing God's sovereignty so much that it eliminates our free will, at least in our minds. And that's kind of like the scenario where we're just all these pre-programmed robots that God has created that are walking around on the earth, and we really don't have any free choice. But, you know, the other extreme is: emphasizing the free will of man so much that in our minds, it means that God doesn't still have full control. And, you know, both of those things are not, you know, a biblical way of thinking of things. I came across this quote as I was reading about this. It says, "The truth is that God does not violate our will by choosing and redeeming us. Rather, He changes our hearts so that we will choose Him." And then they talked about 1 John 4:19 that says, "We love Him because He first loved us." And then, John 15:16, where he says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you." And so we have these dynamics that just make things, you know, so interesting for us to think through. But there is a point of encouragement here too. That the sovereignty of God is not meant to be something that we're, you know, to be really concerned or anxious over. It's supposed to be something that gives us comfort. And, you know, so I guess my encouragement is: even though we don't, and never will completely understand that, you know, to have comfort in that fact that God is sovereign over our lives, but that he's also given us the free will to make choices.

Gary Schick

Right. Well, you know, and it's a hard question. A lot of people struggle with it. I think the reason is, as you guys have both pointed out, and I love this, cause you come from really different backgrounds, but I think we're in agreement here. Both sides of this question are actually true. God is fully sovereign, knows the future, determines every outcome. On the other hand, we are absolutely free and act entirely as free agents. And so someone said, "Well, you can't have it both ways, there's a contradiction." Well, but there's also something in this world called a paradox. And it's a place where two outwardly opposed truths come together as one. And we see throughout scripture, as you have pointed out, and I think Jonathan, you did a great job of taking us to several scriptures where we have both truths. Man is freely choosing; God is sovereignly determining. And so it's not an either or, they're both occurring. And so we see this throughout scripture, that those predestined for good, whose actions, and those who are predestined in some ways for evil; both according to their own desire, and yet nevertheless fulfilling God's will. And so like, for example, you know, we would look at the Old Testament. We read about these pagan princes, like Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus and others, and they are freely acting on their own. They don't even know the Lord, and yet they are fulfilling to the letter, His good plan. We see it in the New Testament. We see it in Judas. Judas is fulfilling scriptures that we read about in Psalms, and yet he is completely acting on his own, and receiving the penalty for it. And preeminently, of course, we see it in Jesus Himself, who fulfills God's will in all things. And personally, I respectfully disagree with those who say, and I didn't hear it from either of you guys today, "That God, you know, He knows what we are gonna choose in the future. And then He just sort of shapes the future around our choices." I think rather, He doesn't weigh it on us, but He takes the lead in all things. We are not predestined according to our choices, but according to His will. Nevertheless, we act as free agents, and I think your scriptures pointed that out. I also think of, you know, that story between the sun and the wind. And they both said, "Well, let's see who can get that guy to take off his coat." And so I think a lot of times we think about God's predestining work as if it's somehow forced. It's a little bit like the wind. "And so he just blows harder and harder and he gets colder and colder, and the guy just wraps his coat around him tighter and tighter. And then the sun says, 'my turn' and he just warms the guy up and the guy just, 'oh, it's a warm day,' and he just takes off his coat." And so you see, there he's freely acting, but also in response to what something greater is doing. And so, we do act according to our natures, and I guess left to just that, nothing good is gonna come. So I'm glad that God is sovereign, and I'm glad that He intercedes. And actually, I think if anything, He's curbing the outcomes of what I would set in motion. And I really also love, not only what Jonathan shared, but Ben, what you were saying about the comfort aspect of this. While these truths, kind of like this was pointed out in the Trinity, it's a little beyond us. We can kind of glimpse it, you know, we can see it in different things. Nevertheless, it is given to us as a comfort. And so I just want to close with a few words here from Ephesians that put the predestining work of God in terms of a comfort to us. "In Him, we have obtained an inheritance. Having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the council of His will. So that we who were first to hope in Christ, might be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." And it's a passage that's talking about our salvation, it's a passage about the fact that we freely embrace the salvation in Christ. And yet, that God in His sovereignty is sealing us and destining us to greater things than we could ever hope for. And so, you know, I think what it really comes down to as a comfort is, is that in Christ we don't do what we would just do naturally on our own. We don't slip. We place our hand in a hand that is much firmer than ours. And the grip is tight, for our benefit. You know, when I'm holding my kids, as I'm walking on the hike and there's kind of a steep drop, they're not saying, "Oh dad, you know, leave me alone so that I can fall off this cliff." They're saying, "You know, thank you. That you hold me fast and I can enjoy the view from the comfort of being kept safe in your arms." And I think that is the healthier way to look at what is frankly, a mystery.

How Do We Reconcile The Seemingly Different Scriptures As It Relates To Faith And Works? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Gary Schick and Johnathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick

You know what I kind of appreciate about these questions? One, every week they're honest. And two, it not only allows us to look at the scripture, but also there's things, and today's gonna be one of them, where we've kind of heard this, but is that exactly how it was? You know what I mean? So I know for my part, I'm gonna dig into that a little bit too. But anyway, it's just kind of good to be able to look into scripture and history and then back to scripture again, and where it all kind of comes together. So here is today's question that kind of deals with a little of both. "How do we reconcile the seemingly different scriptures in Romans and James, as it relates to faith and works? Martin Luther could not reconcile them." So, Jonathan, what have you got on this?

Jonathan Hernandez

Yeah, so I have quite a few scriptures, so we'll try to see what we can get through. So I started with James 2:24, and it says, "you see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." But then when we jump to Romans or jump backwards, I guess to Romans, we have Romans 3:28. It says, "therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from deeds of the law." And so when we look at those two scriptures, we'd say, "Whoa, those kind of contradict each other, right? And we know that scripture doesn't contradict itself, and so when I looked at this, I looked at the word justified out of here. And my Greek's not very good so, so sorry, but it's δικαίωσις(dik-ah'-yo-sis). And so to define that, it would say, "to show to be righteous or declared righteous," are the two meanings for this word. And so we look in Romans and in Romans, it's more of like a legal meaning and so it's 'one who's declared righteous or acquitted.' And so we'd say that's the process of justification. You know, there's a process where we become right with God, we're sinners and we repented and then we believe in Christ. And so therefore, Christ declares us righteous. And so that's the way we would look at those things, and then we would see this throughout the whole book of Romans. And then also in Galatians and Titus, they kind of follow the same declared righteous process. And to kind of give you scriptures within that, we'd have like Romans 3:24, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Then we'd have Romans 4:2-5, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:24, and then Titus 3:7. And with these each, they would be walking that line of being declared righteous and instead of being shown to be righteous. And then the second meaning, like I said, "is to be shown to be righteous," and we'd see that here in the book of James. And James says, "we see Abraham's work show He was righteous," and this is out of James 2:21-23. "Don't you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be righteous because of what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" And so we're seeing this same word, "justified," but in a different light. With Romans it's, "to be declared righteous," and here it's that we're being "shown to be righteous." James 2:25, where it talks about Rahab, is another example, she was shown to be righteous with God by her actions. And so they just can continue to walk down this line of showing to be righteous. And so I think a lot of times when we look at this word, and even any words, we look at them and we think of our meanings for everything. And so we're using that through the scriptures instead of looking "Okay, what does the intended word here mean when we look at these things?" So, we would say, "okay. James, isn't disagreeing with Paul by saying that we are declared righteous by faith and works." And, you know, even though they look like it's two totally different things, they're still walking the same line. And so that's kind of how I would put this, you know? The main goal of Paul is to teach the true meaning of justification by faith alone and how a person is saved. And then in James, they're teaching how to declare the genuineness of someone's faith. And so we're seeing that's where---I guess that's what I wrote down---how I looked at it and how I would justify how these all come together. Or reconcile it.

Gary Schick

And it's not an easy question. I mean, Luther did struggle with it as we'll see. But excellent, thank you. Ben?

Ben Cline
Yeah. Thank you, Jonathan. You know, I was looking through this last night and this really is one of those questions that I really appreciate, because it's one that really makes us delve in scripture. And so, you know, just looking into the passages that are in Romans and the passage that is in James, you know? One of the things that I was thinking about is that God has certain desires for us as Christians, as followers of Him. And, you know, one desire is that we have faith in the finished work, the finished work of Christ on the cross. And that's a desire that He has for us. And that is something that He says, "Believe in this, and you will be saved," but He also has the desire for us to walk in righteousness. You know, holiness is a big, big topic in scripture. And, you know, in Romans, Paul makes the argument that we are justified by faith apart from the law. And it's really interesting, I came across Romans 6:1-2, and he says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?" And he says, "may it never be. How shall we, who died to sin still live in it?" And then I think that James is actually kind of answering that question, and he says, "We don't continue to live in sin. We live in holiness." You know, I came across an article last night, too, you know, as I was looking through different things. And the person who wrote this article, they said, "James doesn't teach a different gospel than Paul. He simply emphasizes that faith and works are inseparable. James warns about hiding in a merely theoretical faith that has no practical relevance." And I just thought that was such a great way to put that. That our faith is, you know, practically what saves us and what declares us as righteous before God. But there is a result, right? There's a result from that. And that is that God wants us to live a holy life before Him. And, you know, there's passages in Titus 2, just a couple of passages I wanted to read real quick. And these are two passages that I think tie these two ideas together very, very, succinctly. And this is Titus 2 starting in verse 11, it says, "For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men." And then it says, "Instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires. And to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age; looking for the blessed hope in the appearing of the glory of our great God and savior Jesus Christ. Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed. And to purify for Himself, a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

Gary Schick
"Zealous for good deeds." Saved by faith, but the good deeds should follow.

Ben Cline
Yeah, exactly. And then he ends that by saying, "These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority and let no one disregard you." And that's the approach that I think both Paul and James are taking. They're speaking it with authority and they're not allowing anyone to disregard those words. The other passage, you know, you guys know Ephesians 2:8-10. You know, that we're saved by grace through faith, and it's not by works so that none of us can boast. But then it talks about, in verse 10, that we were created by Christ Jesus for the works that He laid out before us. And so those things are tied together in scripture, they're inseparable.

Gary Schick
Well, and as I looked into this, you know, I kind of thought about that little piece there too, about Luther and his struggle. With what he saw as a contradiction between Paul and Romans and James. And, you know, he did not seem to like the book of James. He appears to have taken an issue with it. He didn't think it expressed the nature of the gospel, because it appeared in his mind to contradict Paul's statement about justification, by being justified by faith. And because it didn't seem to directly mention Christ after the opening verse. And so here's what Luther actually said, he said, "Therefore, St. James epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it." So that, there's a slam; but it gets worse. So he was openly critical of James. He wondered if it belonged in the Bible. He never though, and this is important, he never formally proposed that it should be removed from the scriptures though. Even though he didn't like it, he didn't say we should take it out. And he did, however, interestingly suggested it be taken out of the schools. So here's the first guy saying, "Let's pull it out of the school." And here's what he said about that, he said, "We should throw the epistle of James out of this school, for it doesn't amount to much. It contains not a syllable about Christ, not once. Does it mention Christ except at the beginning? I maintain that some Jew wrote it, probably, who wrote it and probably heard about Christian people, but never encountered any. Since he heard that Christians place great weight on faith in Christ, he thought, 'Wait a moment. I'll oppose them and urge works alone. And this, he did." Well, those are really strong words. But here's something really interesting about Luther. So outwardly he's, "I don't want James," but when I was in seminary, somebody did a statistical analysis of all of Luther's quotes of scripture. And here's, what's really cool. Luther quoted James as often, and with the same authority to which he gave any other scripture. Anything that Paul wrote or anywhere else. So he didn't like it, because in his mind it contradicted. But at the same time, he quoted it as frequently as any other scripture. And I think what we have to keep in mind friends, is historically where Luther was coming from. You know, today James is like the favorite book of most Christians I know, because it is so practical in how we live out our faith. What does living faith look like? But in Luther's day, that wasn't exactly the question. In Luther's day, the church of Rome had so befuddled the gospel by saying, "You know, faith is good, but you can't be saved without faith plus doing these works." And then even defining what these specific works of righteousness were, that had to be added to your faith. And this was a struggle for Luther. If you know his story, he wanted to earn his salvation. I mean, he was going to his confessor every day saying, "And I had this thought and I had that thought." To the point where his confessors said, "Luther, come to me when you got something worth confessing," you know? But he was right in the sense that, "I can't be pure enough for a holy God." Until he came to Paul's words (Romans 1:17), where Paul is actually quoting Habakkuk 2:4. "The just shall live by faith." This is Luther's salvation verse. This is where he is set free from trying to earn his salvation. The just will live by faith, will be justified by faith; as you pointed out in the scriptures you guys each read. And that's a quote that he pulls up again in Galatians 3:11. And by the way, it's also quoted by the author of Hebrews in Hebrews 10:38. Which, some believe Paul could have been the author of Hebrews, we don't entirely know. I think where it all comes together for me is, Ephesians 2:8-9. Paul says it so beautifully, "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith---this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God---not by works, so that no one can boast." So Paul, for the people in the time of the reformation, and for us as well makes it crystal clear: you are saved by faith, not by works. However, and this is where we sometimes forget. We also gotta look to verse 10 for Paul writes, "We are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." So Paul is saying, "look, you're saved by faith, not because of anything you do." And yet he continues, "and saving faith then has this fruit of good works." Yeah, it's not getting the cart before the horse. We're saved by faith and saving faith does good works. And this is where he and James actually come together, because they're answering different questions. Paul is saying to brand new believers who are trying to work their own way into heaven, "Cut it out. You can't do that. You can't work your way in, this is a gift you receive." James is saying to those new believers, "And now having received this faith, this is how you live it out." And curiously, while, you know, mentioning the fact of James, he really does only name Jesus right there at the beginning. But he refers to Jesus over and over again in the sense that he is quoting Jesus' teaching. Particularly, from the Sermon on the Mount, which is all about how we live out our faith. All through his beautiful, practical letter. So on the surface, do they seem to contradict? Sure. But when you dig in, James and Paul, as you guys pointed out, walk hand in hand. And Luther, on the surface, can't stand the book of James, but underneath, when it gets practical, when in terms of living out our faith, he's quoting James just as much as anybody else, because it's God's word. And, you know, we make a lot of a guy like Martin Luther, because he was the springboard to the reformation. But his words, thankfully are not divine scripture, are they? You know, they were a guide to the people of his time, as they were really shaking free from something heavy. A heavy chain that we are not walking in today. So we gotta give Luther a little bit of a break for his strong words, which are overboard, because he was facing something that was overboard. And that was the idea that somehow, it's Christ plus all the merits of the saints, plus what you and I can do plus...and you just can never do enough if you're trying to earn your way in. So, is there any more that you guys have on that?

Ben Cline
No, this is great!

Gary Schick
Yeah. Kind of fun to dig into the history too, isn't it? We're living in hard times. He did too.

What Did Jesus Mean In Matthew 3:15? - Ask the Pastor

You can listen to Ask The Pastor every weekday at 9:00am MST on 97.1FM Hope Radio KCMI! You can also listen and subscribe to Ask The Pastor in your favorite podcast feed. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Amazon Music and most other podcast services.

This edition of Ask the Pastor features Pastors Ben Cline, Gary Schick and Johnathan Hernandez.

Gary Schick
Well, here's the question guys, "In Matthew 3:15, what did Jesus mean when he said 'permit it to be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Jonathan, what do you think?

Jonathan Hernandez
Yeah, so this portion of scripture is talking when Jesus walks up to John the Baptist and asks him to baptize him. And we all know that John's like, "Wait, what? Shouldn't you be doing this to me?" And so, you know, we get into this verse where Jesus says, "permit it to be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." And so as we look at this, I look at it as, so this is the completing of every righteous requirement. This is what Jesus is basically saying. "I've come to complete all these things," and we see that on the cross, "but here I'm fulfilling the the cleansing of the lamb." Cause He's the lamb that dies for us, the sacrificial lamb. So He was a sacrificial lamb, this is the cleansing of Him in that sense the Lamb's supposed to be spotless, blemish. And obviously we know that Jesus, you know, has no sin. So the baptism that John is baptizing with is that repentance. And we would ask, "Okay well, why is Jesus being baptized when He has nothing to repent of?" Right? He's already clean, He's already spotless, but He's taking these on for us, you know? And ultimately He'll die on the cross for our sins. So this is how I see it, as that was the fulfillment of every righteous requirement leading up towards that cross.

Ben Cline
Yeah, again it's important, like Jonathan did, to look at the context of that verse. And just to understand that Jesus definitely did not have to be baptized. He didn't need the baptism of John, because again He didn't have anything to repent for. Jesus was perfect and he didn't have any sin but, you know, you think of this as a time of transition too. Where people had been following John the Baptist and they'd been following his teaching and he had been teaching them about two things. He had been teaching them about repentance, and then the second thing was very closely tied to that. They were, you know, repenting in anticipation for the coming Messiah, and now this time of transition, they're transitioning from following John and his teaching to following Jesus and His teaching. This really was the launch of the public ministry of Jesus into the world and He would be teaching sinners about Himself.

Ben Cline
And so when you think about Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist, again, He really had no need of the baptism of repentance. But it was a way for Him to identify with the sinners that He came to save. And it really was a beautiful picture as well, just the baptism that happened that day. There were really a couple of cool things that I think came out of that. You know, number one: that being baptized by John the Baptist was, you know, I think a validation of John's teaching and his ministry. And then also you see in that baptism, a picture of the three persons of the Godhead who are involved. You know, Jesus being baptized in water, He was picturing his death, burial, and resurrection. And then, you see the Holy Spirit's presence there with the dove just showing His presence of truth and His presence of peace throughout the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. And then the Father also coming in and they could audibly hear His voice and saying that He was pleased with His Son and also loving Him through that sacrifice that He would be making. So just some thoughts. I mean, I'm not sure if, you know, I answered this particular question, but there's some thoughts that I think relate back to that question.

Gary Schick
Well and, you know, one thing that I was thinking was, as we look at this verse, and I think you guys did a great job with it. We look at it in the context of what comes before and after. And so I'm just gonna pause here and read the passage from Matthew, starting at verse 13. It says, "then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan, to John to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him saying, 'I need to be baptized by you and you come to me?' But Jesus answered him, 'Let it be so; for thus, it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness,' then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized immediately, He went up from the water and behold, the heavens were open to Him and He saw the spirit of God, descending like a dove and coming to rest on Him. And behold, a voice from heaven said, 'this is my beloved Son with whom I am well pleased." And so, just to kind of recap what you both said. Number one: John got it right with his question, "I need to be baptized by you Jesus, cause you're the sinless one," you know? And so Jesus is not coming for the washing wave of His sins, just like He didn't go to the cross for His sins. But He is, from the baptism to the cross identifying with, actually it starts at the conception when He identifies with us and our humanity. But now, He is really identifying His mission. He's come to be identified with the sins of the world, even though they are not His. And to walk in this life in a public way, and at the same time, as He is identified with us, the Holy Spirit and the Father---the other two aspects of the Triune God---identify with Him publicly. The Spirit descends upon Him, and the voice from heaven, "Here is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." And so at his first public identification with us in our humanity, the Father and the Spirit publicly announce His divinity. And as you pointed out so well, the whole mission is encapsulated. And even right down now, you know, to our baptism, which is different than the baptism of John. It was, you know, repentance and preparation for the Messiah. And here He is now, ours looks back on Him and celebrates. You know, everything we do in baptism, no matter what your background is on that, it's still really about the same thing. It's about Jesus. It's about the washing away that He came to do, that we receive by faith in Him and just how totally exciting that is!